My suspension setup, input please.

[CulRidr]

Hey guys, wanted to get your opinion on a couple of things in terms of suspension setup.

This is what I have now (or will have installed sometime in the spring):
- MP3 swaybars
- Stock MP3 Tokicos
- Stock front strut bar
- Ground Control sleeves (with "standard" 350/250 spring rate)
- AXR "clunk fix"
- rear upper strut bar
- GTspec lower tie bar
- GTspec trailing links
- AXR adjustable rear links (if they can ever be made)
- MSP upper strut mounts

This is where I need advice:
- New spring rate for the coilover sleeves as mine are just TOO stiff. I LOVE how the car handles, but it's just too much on the crappy city roads. I'm thinking something in the 225/175 range, but I'm just not sure as I don't have much experience with this stuff.
- Tokico Blues or Illuminas (not sure the Illuminas are necessary for a mostly daily driven car which could see the odd AutoX), to match the spring rate above. Either way I need new ones since I still have the stockers with over 110k miles, with about 15k miles on the ground controls
- Is there anything else I should consider to have a near perfect setup, or that would be a nice addition to this setup?

[Z]

kinda off topic, but where did you get the upper rear strut bar from? ive looked all over the place, and cant find it.

[iracemine]

sorry, but what makes a msp upper strut mount different than a regular one?

[CulRidr]

kinda off topic, but where did you get the upper rear strut bar from? ive looked all over the place, and cant find it.

JUST bought it from a member of the "other forum (http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=123462)". It was modified from an MX-3 to fit a wagon, but will fit a sedan just fine.

sorry, but what makes a msp upper strut mount different than a regular one?

Stiffer bushings which help keep the geometry together even more. One of those little additions that help make a difference.

[Z]

so, i can put any wagon rear bar on my sedan? =o

[njaremka]

you need to drill some big holes in the rear deck to fit a rear tower bar on the sedan

i am also interested in the recommendations for spring rates. i have the tokico handling kit on my car, and the more i drive it, the more i think the rear is too low and soft.

[CulRidr]

so, i can put any wagon rear bar on my sedan? =o

The only way that would be true is if you can separate the mounting brackets from the bar. Otherwise you'd have to make some really big holes as stated below

you need to drill some big holes in the rear deck to fit a rear tower bar on the sedan

You don't need to make "big" holes to fit. If your brackets can separate from the bar, then all you usually need are 1.5" holes on each side. There's a how-to on "the other forum" about it. I might make my own here in the spring once I do it myself.

[njaremka]

yeah, i'm the one that convinced you to get it

in my opinion, drilling anything over 1/2-inch in my car is big

[CulRidr]

yeah, i'm the one that convinced you to get it

in my opinion, drilling anything over 1/2-inch in my car is big

LOL that's true :D
And I guess I can agree with the "big" part as any whole is too big unless it's necessary :)

[liquid_ag]

do you want it low more for looks or handling? if you want handling - tein s techs, looks/comfort - eibachs

[CulRidr]

^who are you asking? And many people would say that s-techs aren't great for handling because they are TOO low.

[liquid_ag]

you? lol the stechs are good if matched with illuminas. stiffest of the aftermarket springs without going sleeves or coilovers. they are a smidge low, but they work very well

[CulRidr]

I never mentioned I was too low. If ever I was, all I would need to do is adjust my coilover sleeves ;)
Nick mentioned he was too low though...

[liquid_ag]

i like the stechs. ive run a couple of p5s with teins at teh autox and they are fun

[CulRidr]

I was just reading up on one of TheMan's suspension setups, and he was mentioning that if you are using springs that are meant for a P5 on a sedan, to use the upper strut mounts for a P5 because they are apparently stiffer. Would this also be helpful if you have a very stiff suspension but that is made for a sedan?

[liquid_ag]

yes. i have the mazdaspeed fronts and p5 rears, as the mazdaspeed fronts are ~30% stiffer and the p5 rears are stiffer than sedans

[kansei]

do you want it low more for looks or handling? if you want handling - tein s techs, looks/comfort - eibachs

I'd say almost the opposite. If looks are more important, s-techs. The handling isn't bad with them but it's not the best out there. If you just want handling and don't care about looks, mazdaspeed b-spec or h&r (h&r is much softer but still decent).

you? lol the stechs are good if matched with illuminas. stiffest of the aftermarket springs without going sleeves or coilovers. they are a smidge low, but they work very well

Not the stiffest of the aftermarket springs. Mazdaspeed B-spec are stiffer.. as is theoretically megan racing but like I'd trust their spring rate numbers haha.

I was just reading up on one of TheMan's suspension setups, and he was mentioning that if you are using springs that are meant for a P5 on a sedan, to use the upper strut mounts for a P5 because they are apparently stiffer. Would this also be helpful if you have a very stiff suspension but that is made for a sedan?

I think the P5 upper strut mounts (rear) are actually different than the sedan ones as in the spring seat part is different since the stock springs are different?

[CulRidr]

I think the P5 upper strut mounts (rear) are actually different than the sedan ones as in the spring seat part is different since the stock springs are different?

I have no info when it comes to this stuff so that's why I'm asking. Maybe TheMan can chime in? If not here, then on "his" other forum...

[kansei]

I have no info when it comes to this stuff so that's why I'm asking. Maybe TheMan can chime in? If not here, then on "his" other forum...

He's registered on here but has never signed in.

I think it's something like the rubber is thinner or just positioned differently for the P5 rear mounts.

I know you need them (or maybe it is just 'you should have them') to run the b-spec springs on the sedan (springs were designed for the s-wagon).

the b-spec springs he recently put up for sale are sold though.

Maybe some H&R springs instead? I know Stage Four Motorsports (Ontario) can get them

[CulRidr]

Did you buy them?
And since I can't get those, I've been suggested by Pigeon to stick with the GC sleeves and just get softer springs in the range mentioned in my 1st post. I like her tight, just not THIS tight :)

[liquid_ag]

bspecs arent technically aftermarket, and megan racing is horrible quality so they dont count. the h&r are a lower rate as well

[kansei]

bspecs arent technically aftermarket, and megan racing is horrible quality so they dont count. the h&r are a lower rate as well

b-specs are aftermarket. They weren't installed on any of our cars, that makes them aftermarket. Plus they were designed by Mazdaspeed and manufactured by eibach --Mazda came in after the fact and bought Mazdaspeed and continued to sell them. It's not like the MP3 and MSP springs where they say "racing beat" on them but racing beat didn't actually manufacture them (mazda did), nor were they even made to racing beat's original specs.

There were batches of the b-spec springs sold before Mazda bought Mazdaspeed --including the ones I just bought. They're the exact same as the ones they sold later with a Mazda part number (still made by eibach).

Yes the h&r are lower rate, but unlike the s-techs they're actually performance oriented not style oriented. S-techs need high spring rates to counteract what is going on with the front suspension geometry.

[CulRidr]

Just for the record, the MP3/MSP springs DON'T say Racing Beat on them for the very reason you just mentioned. Take it from someone who just sold some not long ago. The only ones that do are the actual after market RB springs.

[kansei]

Just for the record, the MP3/MSP springs DON'T say Racing Beat on them for the very reason you just mentioned. Take it from someone who just sold some not long ago. The only ones that do are the actual after market RB springs.


coolness :)

to recap (sorry about the detour), you want something in the 225/175 range for springrates. Basically there isn't anything 'available'. The b-spec springs are close but at 247/213 they're a decent bit over what you have now.

What ride height do you have the car at? Around MSP height, or low like s-tech height? You might find that just putting it to MSP height will make it a lot more comfortable. Even with your small stock mp3 bumpstops you can easily bottom out the suspension if you're low enough :P

Have you looked around on maybe ground control's site to see about springs? They might be a standard spring length and diameter as well so eibach and others sell race springs that could work.

As for struts, something to consider is that the tokico HPs might not be 'enough' for the ground control springs. I don't know if the MP3 tokicos were revalved like the MSP ones were but who knows. Even the aftermarket ones are designed for 10-15% higher springrate than stock.

I do remember something from my tokico paperwork mentioning that they'd revalve them for free though. Of course major headache to take them off the car, ship them to tokico, wait for return --especially if you're dealing with crossing the Canadian border a couple times to do so.

I haven't looked into it but maybe revalving of the struts can be done locally? I'll be looking into this myself if new struts don't find there way to me :D

[njaremka]

b-specs are aftermarket. They weren't installed on any of our cars, that makes them aftermarket. Plus they were designed by Mazdaspeed and manufactured by eibach --Mazda came in after the fact and bought Mazdaspeed and continued to sell them. It's not like the MP3 and MSP springs where they say "racing beat" on them but racing beat didn't actually manufacture them (mazda did), nor were they even made to racing beat's original specs.

There were batches of the b-spec springs sold before Mazda bought Mazdaspeed --including the ones I just bought. They're the exact same as the ones they sold later with a Mazda part number (still made by eibach).

Yes the h&r are lower rate, but unlike the s-techs they're actually performance oriented not style oriented. S-techs need high spring rates to counteract what is going on with the front suspension geometry.

OT - what are you going to do with your s-techs?

[CulRidr]

coolness :)

to recap (sorry about the detour), you want something in the 225/175 range for springrates. Basically there isn't anything 'available'. The b-spec springs are close but at 247/213 they're a decent bit over what you have now.

What ride height do you have the car at? Around MSP height, or low like s-tech height? You might find that just putting it to MSP height will make it a lot more comfortable. Even with your small stock mp3 bumpstops you can easily bottom out the suspension if you're low enough :P

Have you looked around on maybe ground control's site to see about springs? They might be a standard spring length and diameter as well so eibach and others sell race springs that could work.

As for struts, something to consider is that the tokico HPs might not be 'enough' for the ground control springs. I don't know if the MP3 tokicos were revalved like the MSP ones were but who knows. Even the aftermarket ones are designed for 10-15% higher springrate than stock.

I do remember something from my tokico paperwork mentioning that they'd revalve them for free though. Of course major headache to take them off the car, ship them to tokico, wait for return --especially if you're dealing with crossing the Canadian border a couple times to do so.

I haven't looked into it but maybe revalving of the struts can be done locally? I'll be looking into this myself if new struts don't find there way to me :D

I've been thinking about the struts not being good enough for the ground controls, and mine are at 178,000kms so it's about that time. Right now I have dibs on some lightly used Illuminas in the FS section so that's the plan for that.

As for the GC, pigeon has suggested I buy replacement springs through him since he has access to all the springs that Eibach makes for the ground controls (from 175 all the way up to 3600+ (didn't check all of them)). I need to find out what the dimensions are for my springs to be able to see what choices they have. As for my range, it's definitely a range...in other words I'm not exactly sure what to get. For my front, I don't think I would want higher then 250 (I'm at 350 now), and I'd probably want ~200 give or take 10-15% for the rear. Wondering if anyone has experience with this range of spring rate.

The other question about my setup is if I'm missing any crucial elements in my suspension setup to make it even better, or if I'm pretty much at the optimal point with all the mods mentioned in the 1st post.

[kansei]

I don't think you're missing anything. If you get it at the optimal ride height and get some struts that can handle your spring rates, it should be awesome. Not comfortable by any means but awesome still ;)

[CulRidr]

That's right forgot to answer that question. Here are some pictures for you to judge from various angles. I'm probably about ~.5" lower then MSP.

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff97/CulRidr/DSC_0049.jpg

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff97/CulRidr/DSC_0028.jpg

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff97/CulRidr/DSC_0022.jpg

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff97/CulRidr/DSC_0031.jpg

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff97/CulRidr/DSC_0029.jpg

[KrayzieFox]

I kinda of want an MP3 now .. but they're all pretty expensive and insanely high miles. Nice color combo with the yellow calipers and black wheels, looks hot on the blue.

[chiefmg]

Not sure if this will help, but I originally had the Tokico HP suspsension kit (matched struts and progressive springs) on my sedan. I also have Mazdaspeed sways front/rear, MSP front strut bar and GTSpec trunk bar. When I installed the AXR clunk fix kit the car pitched over repetitive bumps (like those tar strips between concrete road sections). Once I installed a set of MP3 springs (linear) that went away.

BTW, from what I have read (and seen) a rear strut bar isn't really necessary in a sedan. The structure of the car is such that the strut towers are already tied together. If you need one then the GTSpec bar can do the trick.

[Shasta]

So then what is recommended for the S Techs? Illuminas or HP's? Sorry to thread jack but you have me thinking now what I need.

[kansei]

So then what is recommended for the S Techs? Illuminas or HP's? Sorry to thread jack but you have me thinking now what I need.

HPs work fine with s-techs.. what I'm running right now.

You already buy s-techs? I'll have all my stuff for sale come springtime but.. like April when it's really warm enough to do car work.

[Shasta]

^ Yup been rolling on them since last summer with stockers. Love the look but the stock struts do not control the bounce that well.

[Protege v2.5]

I'm doing my own R&D on end-links I tired of waiting for evolv's solution.

trying my first setup for durability. If that doenst work I'll try something else but I've got the RB bars waiting to go on and a bunch of GT-spec stuff sitting in my Brother in laws.

[mzdalvr]

Im still running the stock struts with my s-techs - the ride is softer over bumps but the springs make it very responsive. i haven't seen any performance issues with them. the eibachs are a little bit higher but not by much. also the consideration is that eibachs are progressive and in my experience they tend to make the struts go mad with a lot of bouncing, whereas the s-techs are linear and have been smooth.

[kansei]

but not all eibachs are progressive, just those that are sold aftermarket for our cars by them.

Their race springs and other specialty springs (Mazdaspeed B-spec) are not

[CulRidr]

Other suspension upgrades added to my list:
Mazdaspeed RB sway bar upgrade from the MP3 upgrade
Superpro front and rear sway bar bushings and LCA bushings.

[kansei]

thanks for the reminder.. I need to get some superpro stuff ordered (front sway bushings stock p5 size and all the front/rear control arm bushings :) )

Do you know when the superpro stuff will be coming in?

[CulRidr]

6-8 weeks. You might want to talk to Pigeon and see if he can still get you the 15% discount which ended last night.

[kansei]

not a big deal.. I'm a poor college student I won't have the money until:
1. my massive tax return shows up
2. March 17th
3. I get a job

whichever comes first :P

[CulRidr]

You get your birthday money 2 weeks before your birthday? :)

[kansei]

You get your birthday money 2 weeks before your birthday? :)

nah more like.. my student loan money comes then and I can use the money in my savings account to buy bushings and still have money for rent and bills and crap.

I don't get money for my birthday... I guess my fam feels as though I should have grown out of that by now lol

[liquid_ag]

i dont get anything for my bday anymore :(

[CulRidr]

So this will be the final setup after all:
- MP3 swaybars
- Mazdaspeed Aspec struts
- Mazdaspeed Bspec springs
- AXR "clunk fix"
- MX-3 rear upper strut bar
- GTspec lower tie bar
- GTspec trailing links
- GTspec strut tower bar
- AXR adjustable front end links
- custom rear adjustable end links

Anything else I should bother adding to this list over time?

[CulRidr]

thanks for the reminder.. I need to get some superpro stuff ordered (front sway bushings stock p5 size and all the front/rear control arm bushings :) )

Do you know when the superpro stuff will be coming in?

Did you still want all those bushings? Mine will be coming in a couple of weeks after my suspension build so I won't be using them. Let me know as I can ship them off to you, otherwise I'll cancel my order as I can do that now because of all the delays.

[Protege v2.5]

you need to drill some big holes in the rear deck to fit a rear tower bar on the sedan

i am also interested in the recommendations for spring rates. i have the tokico handling kit on my car, and the more i drive it, the more i think the rear is too low and soft.

Thats how I feel about the Eibach prokit also.

[kansei]

Did you still want all those bushings? Mine will be coming in a couple of weeks after my suspension build so I won't be using them. Let me know as I can ship them off to you, otherwise I'll cancel my order as I can do that now because of all the delays.

I'll still be jobless in three weeks, but thanks for lookin out for me. I think corksport or some other site like that sells a similar bushing kit, if I keep the car past the end of this year I'll look into it.

[Protege v2.5]

I'll still be jobless in three weeks, but thanks for lookin out for me. I think corksport or some other site like that sells a similar bushing kit, if I keep the car past the end of this year I'll look into it.

No more pro?

[mgerth]

a few months late, but putting a strut bar on the rear of a sedan is ridic. the unibody is quite stiff, especially in that location

[CulRidr]

a few months late, but putting a strut bar on the rear of a sedan is ridic. the unibody is quite stiff, especially in that location

It's not like it's going to hurt anything either.
Either way, looks like the suspension build is this weekend :)

[CulRidr]

Today is the big day...pictures tonight or tomorrow when it's done! (cabpatch)

[CulRidr]

So I finally get to see what this setup can do tomorrow at my 1st AutoX event...I'm so excited!! :D

[Protege v2.5]

What size tires are you running?

[CulRidr]

205/40r17...I would prefer the 45, but you couldn't beat the price I got on the Fuzion ZRIs I bought. The correct size would have been almost double the price

[CulRidr]

Next piece of the suspension puzzle: full GTspec trunk cage. Won't have it in my hands until a couple of months from now so I won't see it's full effect until next year's season, but I'm looking forward to it :)