Custom Camshafts for Turbo Applications

[Peepsalot]

This thread is here to discuss the possibilies of custom made camshafts for turbocharged FS-DEs

First, has anyone ever had a custom ground camshaft designed specifically for a turbo FS-DE? If so, what are the specs?

Is anyone here familiar with camshaft design and what specifically could be improved? Or is there much room for improvement?
I am aware of the existence of the "mazdaspeed" camshafts, which some people have dropped into MSP and other turbo proteges. They claim that power is gained(I haven't personally seen a dyno), but this goes against everything I have read about more overlap being detrimental to turbocharged engines.

Could we benefit from some higher lift, and would a beefier valvetrain be required to handle the extra stress of this? Also, would too much lift turn our non-interference engines into interference?

It seems to me that camshafts are a major part of an engine build to me, yet there is only one option currently available that I know of right now, and it was designed for an NA application.

For reference, the FS-DE camshaft specs taken from theMAN's protege FAQ
Valve Timing

Intake cam duration
230° @ 0.003"

Intake cam opening
2° BTDC

Intake cam closing
48° ABDC

Intake cam lobe height
43.700mm (1.7205")

Intake cam base circle
35.052mm (1.380")

Intake valve lift
8.6487mm (0.3405")

Exhaust cam duration
230° @ 0.003"

Exhaust cam opening
48° BBDC

Exhaust cam close
2° ATDC

Exhaust cam lobe height
43.225mm (1.7018")

Exhaust cam base circle
35.052mm (1.380")

Exhaust valve lift
8.1737mm (0.3218")

Valve overlap
4°

Also, the I can't find the exact specs on the Mazdaspeed camshafts at the moment. I'm a little fuzzy on this, since I thought they were from the FS-ZE, but the FS-ZE camshaft specs in theMAN's FAQ appear to be identical to the regular FS-DE camshafts.

[daedalus]

THANK YOU FOR POSTING THIS THREAD! I have seriously wanted to know what the experts have to say on this topic, because every other turbo car they get gains of massive porportions with cam upgrades. My 4G63 gained 35whp with HKS 272's dropped in it and no other changes...

I doubt our stock FS-DE cams were that effecient from the factory. I just want to know what to do to get more out of them. Props to you for posting this!

[pdhaudio83]

I'm willing to bet nearly no one knows how ineffective our stock cams are, but if its like EVERY other stock item, the aftermarket can do it much better.

[vindication]

I know wagner made a set for NA and for FI. I beleive the only one to publicly announce they bought it on the other boards was dave. I dont know if he dynoed them on his NA build. I dont think wagner released or will ever release info on his cams unless someone buys them and tells us. subbing for further news.

[Super Matty P]

Just a little fyi, on a diesel application (heavily dependent on turbo for power) there is absolutely 0 overlap.

The cams DaveB got from wagner were never tested independently. When he dyno'd them he also had adjustable gears and a full catless exhaust with obx header. No'one has ever tested a set B&A to see exact gains.

If you guys are serious about getting custom cams made I can go by Paeco and speak with them about some. Last time I spoke with them they told me that no 2 cams are the same...or some horseshit. They said they couldn't just make a cam grind and just produce 10 sets because every set would be different. Either they didn't know what they were talking about or they were just brushing me off.

[BRIAN MP5T]

Corkey Bell's Outdated "Book Thing" stated that N/A cams are good for FI. That there was little to be gained at the Cam.

[Super Matty P]

he's wrong.

[BRIAN MP5T]

k

[Killer 8]

All i know is the even thought the fs-ze cams have a higher (not by much) duration and a slightly increased over lap. from my knowledge as long as it doesn't have a very high overlap the turbo is able to still get in as much air as needed to keep gains from decreasing due to the fact that the intake and exhaust valves are staying open long enough for the air pushed in by the turbo and go straight through the exhaust right before closing. I have both the fs-ze intake and Mazdaspeed exhaust cam which i have also been told is nothing but a re pinned intake cam but once i get the turbo on and let someone (505 maybe ) drive and see if it feels any different from his set up before he upped the boost. i think the reason behind the diesel is because if it doesn't have the right amount of air in the cylinder on the up stroke it won't com-bust as advertised.

[Super Matty P]

the reason for the cam design on the diesel is because they have to maximize every bit of power from the turbo.

the fs-ze and mazdaspeed cams are one in the same. They are a decent gain for an NA application. I can't wait to test them with the supercharger. I'm sure they'll work well on the turbo engine but you really need a custom cam set up specifically for your car to see best results.

I'd be REALLY surprised if a set of custom cams made for the msp couldn't produce 20whp without adjustment.

[vindication]

I'd be REALLY surprised if a set of custom cams made for the msp couldn't produce 20whp without adjustment.
I'm sure it could as long as you port the intakemanifold and remove vtcs and also get a nice exhaust and might as well get cam gears but may not be needed. also ems would be needed to see the full potential of these puppies.

[Super Matty P]

no way. the stock cams are the same old restrictive crappy units from a decade ago.

I would think with a tubular turbo manifold, single runner intake manifold and these cams....I bet big power could be made..especially if you can pour in a ton of lift and pull out all of the overlap.

[kicker22705]

i saw in crossover's website that they were developing some.

[Peepsalot]

Just a little fyi, on a diesel application (heavily dependent on turbo for power) there is absolutely 0 overlap.

The cams DaveB got from wagner were never tested independently. When he dyno'd them he also had adjustable gears and a full catless exhaust with obx header. No'one has ever tested a set B&A to see exact gains.

If you guys are serious about getting custom cams made I can go by Paeco and speak with them about some. Last time I spoke with them they told me that no 2 cams are the same...or some horseshit. They said they couldn't just make a cam grind and just produce 10 sets because every set would be different. Either they didn't know what they were talking about or they were just brushing me off.
haha, yeah I wouldn't be interested in buying cams from someone that said that.

So does anyone have the specs for the mazdaspeed, j-spec, whatever you want to call them.

[BRIAN MP5T]

"Ton Of Lift" might wear the valvetrain much quicker and cause a problem near the upper RPM Band.

[METAL]

if you guys want cams designed for our cars,just ask.

I have a machinest/builder/HP flowing from viens friend.

I will give him the stockspecs to our engine,and cams,and see what he comes up with.

(may have him grind some for me too)



BTW,the fs-ze cams will work VERY well if you mach them with some cam gears,and spread them out a bit.(mostly just advancing the intake cam)

[Peepsalot]

I never thought about it till now, but I guess the cam gears would be used to reduce(or possibly completely eliminate) the overlap.
How many degress can you adjust with cam gears, and how much do people normally do?

[BRIAN MP5T]

I never thought about it till now, but I guess the cam gears would be used to reduce(or possibly completely eliminate) the overlap.
How many degress can you adjust with cam gears, and how much do people normally do?

Not Much. :)

http://www.msprotege.com/members/Brian%20MP5T/GEAR%20-%20(5).jpg

[Super Matty P]

"Ton Of Lift" might wear the valvetrain much quicker and cause a problem near the upper RPM Band.

$216 gets you a set of Eibach performance valvesprings for performance applications. They'll handle it!

[MyZmZm]

subbing for further info - this is one mod i've always wanted to do. but at the same, i want to make sure what i end up getting will actually be worth it, both money and hp.

[Super Matty P]

Do you guys want me to take it further and actually get with Crower or Comp or Paeco about this? I have a spare head, stock cams and everything and some free time.

I could even go as far as looking at STRONG NA cams also. If this were to go any further how many people do you think we'd honestly have interested?

[MyZmZm]

I would most definitely be interested - with the only serious factor that could potentially hold me back being the cost.

Also, if I remember correctly (and please correct me if I'm wrong, still on the steep learning curve here compared to the rest of you :) ), the specs on cams for NA would vary greatly as compared to FI, right? Meaning, what works and is optimal with one application won't necessarily be the best for the other.

[Super Matty P]

well, typically no...but in this instance I'm looking for an aggressive cam for each NA or FI....because of this they would probably not work well together.

so... don't buy the NA cams and then turbo later.

however, NA cams would be great on...say....a centrifugal supercharger set-up. :wink:

[MyZmZm]

well, typically no...but in this instance I'm looking for an aggressive cam for each NA or FI....because of this they would probably not work well together.

so... don't buy the NA cams and then turbo later.

however, NA cams would be great on...say....a centrifugal supercharger set-up. :wink:
You know my thoughts on this already Matty :D - speaking of which, I'm going to have to hit you up for some info. Expect a pm from me in the not too distant future...

[daedalus]

definatly intrested in turbo cams.

[Super Matty P]

ok, I'll be making the calls in the morning. I've been working on my cam calculator and I think I've got some neat ideas to run by these shops.

I made a new GI thread on protegeclub (since I'm there most often, nothing personal). If anyone is seriously interested in some new cams just give me a shout over there and I'll keep you all up to date.

[MyZmZm]

Could you post the link to this thread?

[Super Matty P]

http://www.mazda3club.com/showthread.php?p=361165#post361165

[MyZmZm]

Some of the information you posted in your thread on mazda3club, are you going to post that information here as well?

[kicker22705]

serious interest, w/ intent to buy

[Super Matty P]

I can but I didn't want to step on any toes of other vendors here.

[Peepsalot]

I can but I didn't want to step on any toes of other vendors here.
You're the vendor now dog.

[Aric]

with everyone being worried about overlap most companies have people dial it in on their own with cam gears. Typically one cam is advanced while the other is retarded. Not much though usualy only like 3 degrees or so on each cam.

Has anyone tried adding overlap with the stock cams?

[Super Matty P]

I don't know anyone with cam gears other than Brian.

Peeps, any and all stuff I do/sell gets done through p-garage so I didn't say anythign here until details were finalized. Ken and I are working on it now though.

[METAL]

horsepower freaks has some billet ones.

[Super Matty P]

i mean, i dont know anyone with them installed..