Piggyback / Standalone Comparison

[t3ase]

Now that it's my turn to pick out a piggyback or standalone, it's time for teh t3ase to suggest a new collaborative effort. I'm suggesting that those who are familiar with each system please try and post the specifications. I'll then move those to a spreadsheet or table and we can have eventually have a "what fits you best" for the systems.

I DO NOT and WILL NOT turn this in to a debate between systems. I want the first couple of people to post the main specs that would be used in marketing the products. I'll then start our tables there and as I learn further, I'll fill in any new comparison topics.

Sound do-able?

[pdhaudio83]

From what I have seen in my experience with the MPI, if you plan on using secondary injectors with stock primaries, the MPI is the way to go.. but if you plan on running larger primaries with the MPI, you may have some problems.

My experience with the Haltech has been basically good. Early on (as Tim knows) Beau and I had an issue of overheating the unit BUT IT WAS ONLY due to the fact it was laying on a part that got hot, and it was behind the cupholder, and got NO ventilation. I have moved the unit, and have NO issues now. The haltech is very easy to tune, and does a good job with live tuning. It isn't as fine tuning as I'd like it to be (the resolution could be better). The serial interface works WELL with a USB convertor, and it also has a very nice datalogging feature of ANY input you want (will log timing, RPM, coolant temp, ETC).
It did take me a while to get to where I am happy, and I have a few issues with running closed loop that I hope to fix in the Spring. Overall, I am very happy with the Haltech.

I also have experience tuning a Nissans AEM PnP. It was very nice interface similar to the Haltech. I love the AEM because the possibilites seem endless. The tuning can be done in an hour by a professional (I witnessed this- the dude was going CRAZY tuning, just SPEED FREAK). The beautiful part about the AEM is it uses all stock sensors, and monitors them all. You don't need a J&S (eg) with the AEM because you can monitor the stock knock sensor which is really nice (monitors voltage). Its a great unit and is widely known and many people can tune it. It took me about 15 minutes to make a complete highway map. Before I tuned it, he was getting about 15mpg on the highway. Afterwards, we got about 29. (Whew) It was very easy, but sometimes there were software glitches (the RPM following tool wasn't showing the "column" it was in, which made things hard because I couldn't see what column was active.

Hope that helps somewhat.

[Super Matty P]

I don't have any specifics right now but I plan on using the Greddy E-manage Ultimate in the near future if my haltech issues don't get worked out. My brother-in-laws turbo'd corolla xrs is about to get the e-manage so I can post results with it if that would help?

[t3ase]

Ok, it helps but I'm more so looking into making a database of say:

Fan Control:
MPI: Yes
AEM: Yes
BRB: No
WTF: Yes, but with module
SQUIRT: Yes

Interface:
MPI: USB
AEM: USB
WTF: Serial
BRB: N/A
SQUIRT: Serial

Obviously those aren't correct, but that's what I'm aiming for.

Then once I have the standard shit, then I'll go searching for options and such.

[t3ase]

Eh, I think this may be a "do it on your own" deal, or at least until I setup the table I'm talking about.

Then all of you can fill in about the systems you know.

[anarchistchiken]

Matty IIRC a few different people have tried the Ultimate and so far no one in a protege has gotten it working.

I'm planning on going with the Microtech when the time comes.

[brealmp3]

yea from what i've read the e-manage ultimate is incompatible with our cars. also i had some problems with my e-manage blue, sent the unit back to greddy at the beginning of december for a warranty issues. i was getting great service and then the guy helping me quit, now i have sent 5 e-mails, left 2 messages with my name and number, but i never got any responses so i just opted out and got the mpi. had a problem at first, but it was due to me having an older tm and install directions for a new version of the tm. but we got everything taken care of. the car has a basic map on it till i can get my exhaust leak fixed and confirm that my wb is reading right. and once i get all that taken care i'll be ready to get down to business! don't know if that helped much, but if you need help on the e-manage don't expect it from greddy, and there is not much on the forums, also the user groups don't offer much help with it and the greddy forums are always pretty slow so don't expect a quick response. no with the mpi i have found several informative threads and i've found a few members that are really helpful with it.(drive)

[Dexter]

Ultimate wont work because they got rid of the dip switches and replaced it with software selection of the engine, and of course the FS-DE ain't on there...

[Super Matty P]

I've spoken with a tuning shop in ATL that has a lot of e-manage experience. I mentioned to them that the system didn't have the Fs-de and they seemed to think it wasn't an issue. They would just another systems profiles and throw out the MAF and tune straight from a MAP.

I dunno. I'm going to work out something. If I [i]could[/] get it working it would be nice to have some info for those who might want it in the future.

[Bigg Tim]

I don't know if I can give the specifics you want, but here is what the MPI can do on the protege: (I'll add to it if I forget something)

Stock injector control via MAF voltage changes
O2 clamp via TM/switch
coolant clamp via TM/switch (used to add more fuel for when you use stock injectors only....limited to about 5-6psi when using stock injectors only....new TM only)
timing control
xtra injector control
O2 tuning method, similar to the N/A method of tuning the MPI
8x16 main map resolution with additional 1x16 load based map
boost/load based tuning
sensor calibration to fine tune boost/load based tuning
Serial connection required (via serial cable or appropriate USB adaptor)
A and B maps stored in unit that can be activate via SW or a toggle switch
3 main tuning tabs-analog (stock injector), injection (xtra injector), ignition
User defined bar graphs in SW to show multiple readouts
real time tuning
datalogging capabilities
can increase or decrease the current field with a pre determined up or down key.
Each increment on the analog tab is .039v change to the MAF output.

There are many other features that can be used like nitrous control, larger stock injector control, different ignition setup( MPI ignition sys.) and others that have not been used on a protege, I can get all of those if needed.

The easiest way to tune it is by using the xtra injectors, stock injectors and no coolant clamp. That allows you to tune the stock injectors, in boost only is best, to give as much as they can and then pick up with the xtra injectors for the rest of the fuel needs and not have to worry about tuning the switch point or "buck" out.

The MPI only works as well as the stock ECU is working, so if there are prior CEL's or issues, you will have issues with tuning. There have been some SW bugs, but the latest SW seems to have fixed those bugs so far. Not all USB-serial adaptors work well with the unit. When using stock injectors only, the coolant clamp adds a lot of fuel so you need to trim that fuel out. There will be a buck when the fuel is added, so you have to tune the 8x16 and the 1x16 to get the addition of fuel to be smooth and not cause a buck. This seems to be the most troublesome part of tuning the MPI when using the stock injectors only.

[Ken@ProtegeGarage]

tim, what is your opinion of the setup dana/kooldino has on the mpi?

[atticus1398]

ive got my unichip specs and a dyno sheet @ stock boost w/ afs, if needed
never mind, PnP would be enough description, lol. but, it can be retuned for for extra injectors, bigger injectors, 2 step rev limit, etc.

[Bigg Tim]

tim, what is your opinion of the setup dana/kooldino has on the mpi?

I personally like to give as much fuel as I can out of the stockers and then add the extra fuel through the xtra injectors. He is not using the stockers but I think he has 4 larger ones in the IM, so his is probably as efficient because of where his xtra injectors are. He could use less of the xtra injectors if he tuned the stockers, but as long as he's happy, that's all that matters.

I don't use the coolant clamp with my setup, so I have no buck to tune out. My non boost area is all zeros, which is no modification, and my boost area has 20's which is maxing the MAF to 4.98v. With it setup like this, I drive stock outside of boost then when boost kicks in I max the injectors out, when I need to, and supply the rest of my fuel needs via the xtra injectors. It's pretty easy to tune this way, I set the analog map once, then only play with the xtra injectors, like Dana does. So the 2 setups are not that different, I am just using my stock injectors a little more.

[NSNMotorsports]

You don't need a J&S (eg) with the AEM because you can monitor the stock knock sensor which is really nice (monitors voltage).

Not even comparable... People end up using the JandS to SET their AEM...

Just wanted to point that out.

[moeed]

Yea the J&S algorithms are extremely good.

[NSNMotorsports]

Microtech:
Microtech LT8S Specification sheet:-
Kit Contents:- ECU Flying Lead Wiring Loom (labeled)
Vacuum Hose
Fuel Pump Relay
Fuse Holder
Technical Manual / Booklet
General:-
Weight 500gm Extruded Aluminum case
1 Year Warranty
32 Bit Motorola Processor
Surface Mount technology board Supports up to 12cyl and 4 rotor engines
Max readable RPM 15950
Max readable boost with standard map sensor :- 25psi (40psi avail as an option)
Fuel Delivery:-
4 Injector Drivers capable of 4 amp peak hold.
True sequential operation on 4 cylinder and rotary applications
Run up to 4 high impedance injectors per driver
Tunable in MAP or TPS mode or combination of both.
Main Matrix table has 16x16 load sites (upgradeable to 32x32)
RPM tuning range currently every 500rpm to 9000rpm (upgradeable to user definable position and number of sites)
Overall Mixture trim +-99%
Fuel Delivery Cont:-
Auxiliary Input correction +-99%
Coolant temp correction
Air temp correction
Accelerator pump amount, sensitivity and Time compensation
Cranking enrichment correction
After start enrichment correction
Cold Start accelerator pump correction
Hard cut RPM limiter
Soft cut RPM Limiter
Over boost Limiter
Sequential, Group fire and Staged/Group fire modes

[NSNMotorsports]

Ignition:-
4 Ignition drivers Inbuilt igniter on LTX8s units
Ignition setup preconfigured for engine type.
Configurable for 1-4 cylinder direct fire or 1-8cyl wasted spark
Configurable for twin distributors and up to 4 rotor engines
16 Ignition RPM sites (upgradeable to user definable number)
16 Map corrections (upgradeable to user definable number)
16 water temp correction points
16 air temp correction points
Ignition advance/retard on accelerator pump
Ignition advance/retard on aux input trigger
Ignition Trim overall +-45deg
Ignition TDC reference adjustment on some applications
Ignition timing split adjustable on rotary applications
Accuracy to .25 degree

Aux inputs and outputs:- (LT8S only, LT10S, LT12S, and LT16S offer more input outputs etc)
Standard features include
One 12V Aux input One –ve switched
Aux output triggered by RPM, Map, water temp


Aux Input cont:-
One PWM output to run idle stepper motor control
Aux input can be configured to run Anti-lag, Mixture trim, Timing trim etc.

[NSNMotorsports]

Diagnostics:-
Red LED indicated Fault code triggered
Data Page indicates where fault lies
Operational errors:-.
Over boost, RPM Limit, RPM Cut, MAX Duty, Water temp, Voltage, Shift Light
Self Test Mode runs all injectors and ignition and cycles aux outputs
Amber LED gives Visual of ignition input signal
Green LED gives visual of power on.

Programming/ Tuning:-
Using Laptop adapter and software Using Handset or DASH unit Sensors:-
Configured to suit application when ordered.
Data logging and map storage:- On board “ECU-Log” Holds 5 minutes of memory .
User definable switching on and off point.
Data Log to Memory (Laptop) 100 samples per second
Viewed Data Log displays average readings 10 times per second
Data log viewable in text or Graph Playback data log
Print data log Save data log to disc

4 Maps savable to laptop adapter or handset
Upgradeable in the future to “save maps to disc”post

[t3ase]

awesome. now just to find a way to put those in a database so I may compare.

[Bigg Tim]

Steve--can you narrow down what you use on the protege setup on which ever box you use? That would make it easier to do his sheet, or is all of this on a protege? I see you listed other boxes, what one do you sell and which things apply to the protege setup?

[pdhaudio83]

Not even comparable... People end up using the JandS to SET their AEM...

Just wanted to point that out.

i think you didnt catch what i meant. there is less of a need for a J&S when you have the AEM because you can see voltage when pinging occurs.

I didn't mean to say you don't need a J&S, but if you want to get AGGRESSIVE with the timing, yes, a J&S will do better than the stock knock sensor. If you want to advance stock timing as much as you can with no activity on the stock knock sensor (which isn't as agressive in listening) you can do so without a J&S.

[Jeph]

I guess I'll have more input to this thread once I get my standalone installed. But the biggest problem i see with piggybacks, is that it will always be at the mercy of the stock ecu. If the stock ecu starts flipping through maps on you, your piggy can't compensate for it. And it ends up throwing your tune out of whack

[NSNMotorsports]

i think you didnt catch what i meant. there is less of a need for a J&S when you have the AEM because you can see voltage when pinging occurs.

I didn't mean to say you don't need a J&S, but if you want to get AGGRESSIVE with the timing, yes, a J&S will do better than the stock knock sensor. If you want to advance stock timing as much as you can with no activity on the stock knock sensor (which isn't as agressive in listening) you can do so without a J&S.

No I caught what you meant... people just don't realize what the real deal is with the knock control.. the voltage will NOT show when pinging occures unless it is severe. I'll have to find the image and post it.. you'll see immediately what I'm talking about.

[NSNMotorsports]

Steve--can you narrow down what you use on the protege setup on which ever box you use? That would make it easier to do his sheet, or is all of this on a protege? I see you listed other boxes, what one do you sell and which things apply to the protege setup?

We use both the LT8S and LT10S boxes on the Protege's... big difference is the LT10 can control the IAC and one extra output as well (so you can do seperate fan, VICS, and IAC control all at the same time versus just fans or VICS on the LT8S). And all those options etc are on both boxes... so all of what I listed IS on the protege units.

[pdhaudio83]

perhaps its different... the basis i have my information on is because we used he AEM and the stock knock sensor on a Nissan KA motor when we went to Sound Performance (Awarded from AEM, one of the best tuners)...

Basically, we tuned as agressively until ANY voltage occured, slowly upping timing until we saw .01v after dynoing, and we then backed timing off to their values where no pinging occured.

But yeah, depends on how aggressive people want to get with it

[NSNMotorsports]

Here you go... look at this page and look at the AEM log and you tell me where the knock was occuring if you didn't have the jandS for a reference on this:

http://www.jandssafeguard.com/Giles/AEMknocklog.html

[NSNMotorsports]

and in case it isn't clear.. the green line is the JandS output voltage.. and the purple and blue lines are the recorded voltages of the knock sensor in the AEM.

[NSNMotorsports]

a key area to look at is from the 25.5 seconds to 27 seconds area... there is no knock as reported by the JandS yet the noise levels of the knock sensor are even higher than they were before during actual significant pinging that occured during the 22-25.5 second range... the indications are simply not very clear or useful from what you can see in the plots... hence my saying that the AEM knock protection is nearly useless except for rather severe cases.

[terbow]

i see. goodpoint. sigh. more money lol

[NSNMotorsports]

Microtech LT8S- 990
+ JandS - 500
+ Profec B Spec II - 300

Total: 1800

Same basic price as market price of an AEM for a lot more power for knock and boost controls... and about 300 more than a Haltech.

I think the only thing that the above combo would lack would be auto-tune/closed loop and "traction control" but don't get me started on the traction control and how crappy that really is from what I understand about it.

[terbow]

i hear u. but i already have the aem so i guess ill need a jand s.

the aem boost control is pretty nice with their solenoid. i dont know how it comapres to a profec but from what i read on aempower and it seems like it works really well, and the solenoid is much less than a profec.

on a side note, is there a way to use the j and s but not need a gauge? cause i mean once its tuned i shouldnt need to see the gauge right? basically i dont want another gauge, im not sure of the solutions tho.

[NSNMotorsports]

i hear u. but i already have the aem so i guess ill need a jand s.

the aem boost control is pretty nice with their solenoid. i dont know how it comapres to a profec but from what i read on aempower and it seems like it works really well, and the solenoid is much less than a profec.

on a side note, is there a way to use the j and s but not need a gauge? cause i mean once its tuned i shouldnt need to see the gauge right? basically i dont want another gauge, im not sure of the solutions tho.

Nothing wrong with the AEM... I think people just miss what the costs really are in the systems...

Integrated boost control is nice because it is all in one thing for you and one less gauge and part etc... so it's good that way...

But yeah.. if you are all set you just need the JandS. You can get away without a guage.. or I can build you a custom gauge if you want... I sell them for about 50 bucks usually depending on the configuration of the actual display that you end up wanting. You don't need it.. but when you are tuning timing it is helpful because once you know that the JandS is setup right you just keep pushing your timing forward until you finally get the JandS to light up.. then back it off a little bit and you are basically optimized for power output and so forth.

But nope, you don't need a gauge with a JandS... and most people have gone without.

[terbow]

well i think personally i understand the fuel part, just timing for some reason seems like a guessing game to me, i know i need a certain afr zone for fuel, but timing i guess isnt as spot on form what i read.

[NSNMotorsports]

Timing is actually much easier than fuel... just not as talked about... everyone knows that fuel you do:

12.8-13.2 for NA based power.

12.1-12.5 for Turbo power "lean"

11.5-11.8 for Turbo safe "rich"

14.7 for stoich for emissions

16.5 - 17 for lean highway cruise.

Timing is more intensive... but simpler to set up on the EMS's usually... light throttle highway cruise is as high as 44 degrees of timing... general full load WOT for NA/no boost ranges from about 35 degree down to about 28 and back up to about 36 degrees across the powerband.. you need to retard timing in your peak torque range... so in the 3500-5000 range...

Boost you pull about 1-2 degrees per psi off the above timing lists...

Cold start you advance timing by as much as 4-5 degrees for warmup etc... also improves cold throttle response

rapid throttle on you add about 2-10 degrees of timing to compensate so you don't "hesitate".

Set "emergency" timing pulls of about 10-15 degrees for when the car is overheated etc...

That's about it... pretty straightforward...