Upgraded Front Bar

[BRIAN MP5T]

I have seen so much shit both Yes and No.

Will an upgraded Front bar help a FWD car around the cones, or will it just cause understeer?

[anarchistchiken]

I think the consensus (sp?) was that the MSP bar (25mm) is about as big as you should go for der autoxing.

[BRIAN MP5T]

Is it that much bigger than the P5 one. I thought they were like 1mm in dif..

[thekid]

From my personal experience the upgraded front bar is far more useful on the bigger tracks at higher speeds and keeping the car level while cornering.

I have never tried changing the bars within the same car, but have driven different proteges with different setups. I think the effect of changing the rear bar has more effect on helping to induce oversteer, than the effect a larger front bar will have on causing understeer.

Back in September I was on at Shannonville Motorsports park, driving in someone elses 1.6L protege with the stock front bar, and the amount of body roll was atrocious compared to how flat my MSP is going through hard corners.

I think this image displays the levelness in the MSP, completely stock except for R compounds... the amount of roll in the 1.6L is was way worse, unfortunately I don't have the pics to prove it...

http://briansibbitt.com/images/CarPics/Racing+AutoX/TrackDays/2005-May28-SMP-Pro/slides/119_7100A.jpg

[BRIAN MP5T]

See, That is basically what I thought.

RWD, You want to worry more about the front bar.
FWD, 21mm in the back and it will stick until it drifts out (Not A Bad Thing)

So what's the deal with the MSP stock bar. It's hollow, Yes?

Is it really what you would call an upgrade for the P5 or is it Pure Shitsicle.

[thekid]

Is it really what you would call an upgrade for the P5 or is it Pure Shitsicle.

I'm not sure on the exact sizes, but for some reason I thought the MSP front bar was 27mm. Anyhow, I sold Macklum my spare MSP front bar, which I believe he's installed in his LX. Hopefully he'll pipe up and comment on the change.

[Gen1GT]

See, That is basically what I thought.

RWD, You want to worry more about the front bar.
FWD, 21mm in the back and it will stick until it drifts out (Not A Bad Thing)

So what's the deal with the MSP stock bar. It's hollow, Yes?

Is it really what you would call an upgrade for the P5 or is it Pure Shitsicle.

The physics work the same for both FWD and RWD. You can easily induce oversteer in a FWD car. All street cars are dialed in to understeer for safety, but the situation is compounded by the additional weight on the front tires in a FWD car. Why it's an issue with RWD cars, is that once traction is broken, the tire will slide, and power-on oversteer because of early throttle or too powerful of a car.

Brian and I have both done 180's during competition.

[vindication]

I'm quite happy with my stock sedan front one and the upgraded rear 21.5mm AWR one.

[BRIAN MP5T]

^^ Me too. I was just wondering..

[greendragon]

When I didnt have the front MSP bar the car would step out all the time if I pushed it ,now the car will still step out but I have to induce it . The car is much flater in the hard corners with just a touch of understeer . I a sweeping corner the car feels netural , If I I had to do this again I would , As far as I am concerned I think Mazda should have put the larger bars on all the Proteges and 5's

[XelderX]

I think your guys are right on with my observations as well. I've played with the front swaybar setup on mine over the last year or two and here is my thoughts. The larger front swaybar is benificial in the higher speed, sweeping corners and on cars that don't have much front camber and soft springs. In an AutoX situation with fairly stiff springs it caused too much low speed understeer since at lower speeds you couldn't use the weight of the backend in transition to swing the car around. The stiffer front bar kept the back from unloading as much and that made my car push in slow speed, sharp turns. My car actually got exponentially faster by upping the spring rate on the front and removing the swaybar entirely, but you had to be on your toes in high speed transitions from side to side especially if it required any lift on the throttle because the backend would be well on it's way to outrunning the frontend. This made the car easy to drive fast on an AutoX course once I learned to use the throttle to control the car more than the steering. The car was super fast that way, but it had a lot of front end roll and that was killing my tires so I eventually set out to reconnecting a front swaybar. I ended up putting the stock saybar back in with some AWR adjustable endlinks, going up 75lbs on the rear springrates to rebalance and the car is now faster than it has ever been.

If you are autoXing a Protege with stock camber adjustment and anything less than 375lbs springs in the front I would say use the bigger bar. It will help keep the front tires from rolling over so much and it will keep the inside tire planted a little better for less wheelspin. Anything roadcourse related will benefit from the larger bar as well since you really don't want the quick rotation that AutoX needs. Having the fully adjustable rear bar makes everything much simpler since you can adjust it to suit the front bar.

[BRIAN MP5T]

So Big Bars + Tight Suspension = 180 Deg Tail Whips...

[Gen1GT]

I have to disagree. A stiffer front bar means you will understeer more. If you have stiffer springs, with poor rebound damping, then you are prone transitional rolling, and you could easily do a 180 in that circumstance. But all else being equal, a stiffer front bar will cause understeer.

My 90GT had broken front sway bar links, which was why it is so prone to snap oversteer with the stock struts unable to control roll.

[BRIAN MP5T]

So what I'm getting here is, if you bother to do front, Rear is a Must.

[Gen1GT]

So what I'm getting here is, if you bother to do front, Rear is a Must.

Yes. If you're a less experienced driver, make sure to get the front bar too. With stiffer struts/springs, personally I'd just get a rear bar so I can rotate easier during autocross.

[thekid]

My race pro, has the Mazdaspeed Front bar... AWR Adjustable Rear Bar... 1000lb rear springs and 800lb fronts... i'll let you know how that all works out in the spring! :)

[vindication]

wow, stiff ass springs. what are they? AWR or something?

[thekid]

wow, stiff ass springs. what are they? AWR or something?

Eibach ERS on the Front and Hyperco's on rear.

[BRIAN MP5T]

Does that even count as a spring? :)

[Gen1GT]

Can you say zero roll?

[XelderX]

My race pro, has the Mazdaspeed Front bar... AWR Adjustable Rear Bar... 1000lb rear springs and 800lb fronts... i'll let you know how that all works out in the spring! :)

Just the 200lbs difference in springrates shows how much the larger front bar makes a difference. I'm sure that race Protege is well balanced and they had to add a lot of rear springrate to match the larger front bar. With my stock front bar I'm running 450lbs springs all the way around.

[mgerth]

Anything roadcourse related will benefit from the larger bar as well since you really don't want the quick rotation that AutoX needs. Having the fully adjustable rear bar makes everything much simpler since you can adjust it to suit the front bar.

Exactly. For autoXing I think the small front, large rear is a good combo. It allows the car to rotate much easier. Higher speed road course driving doesn't need the extra rotation in the rear, in my experience; although I know quite a few people use the 21.5mm bar for track duty.

[JMV]

FWIW, the mazdaspeed brochure says the MSP front sway is 27mm, not 25.

[BRIAN MP5T]

FWIW, the mazdaspeed brochure says the MSP front sway is 27mm, not 25.


Ok, But my point is that an upgrade or actually just a part with a bigger # on it.

Redneck upgrade. 10 is good, 12 is better...

[MazPro]

so I am guessing that the one on a stock protege is smaller? in that case it would be a good idea just to the MSP one as an upgrade, correct?

[vindication]

shit, I love my small stock sedan front swaybar with my rear awr one. just get adjustable endlinks for the front and it's golden.

[XelderX]

shit, I love my small stock sedan front swaybar with my rear awr one. just get adjustable endlinks for the front and it's golden.

That is what I'm using right now. I was too quick in thinking that I needed a bigger front bar. The MSP bar is quite a bit bigger/stiffer than the stock bar. I went with the mentality that the MP3/MSP was one of the best handling FWD cars ever tested so having the same swaybar setup would be ideal. The reality of it is that the testing the magazines did was very subjective. Slaloms and rural road driving similiar to what the magazines use for testing does enhance the benefits of the larger front swaybar. Stock cars with little to no modification to the suspension, and more specifically to alter camber, will probably like the larger front bar. Personally, it just doesn't work for me and I tried just about every combination possible.

[BRIAN MP5T]

Ok, So can someone tell me if it would be a Plus or a minus for my car?

[XelderX]

Ok, So can someone tell me if it would be a Plus or a minus for my car?

For the regular Proteges I believe the only reason to upgrade the front bar would be if I thought the car had too much roll in the front end or if I didn't have enough camber and the roll was causing uneven treadwear. If that was the case though and I had coilovers that I could change the springrates on, I would up the front springrates 50-75lbs and readjust the rear bar before worrying about the front swaybar. I think getting the bigger front bar is the best option for people who can't change their springrates, but for people with coilovers there are easier and more productive ways to get the suspension to do what you want.

[BRIAN MP5T]

Well, the Protege has a backbreaking lack of body roll..

[XelderX]

Well, the Protege has a backbreaking lack of body roll..


Then I don't think the bar will help you much.

[vindication]

elder, do you know what the spring rates on the spool springs are? I've always wanted to know. I've had them on for a couple years now but never asked terry. if you dont know I guess I can ask terry if he remember or if there is any way of finding out.

[XelderX]

^^^^

I have no idea. If you have contact with Terry I would ask him. Ask him if he has any of those Spoolin Innovations hoodies left.

[vindication]

will do. hopefully I can figure out what the spring rates on these bad boys are finally