Just FYI, working on new protege supercharger

[Super Matty P]

While I'm stuck in limbo waiting for my current centrifugal supercharger to be reproduced (5months now) I've deicded to look at other options.

I wanna start by saying that I'm not planning on making this to sell or anything. It's just a project of mine so I can compare and give me something to work on while I'm waiting.

What I've done is gotten with Magnuson Products (Eatons only US distributor) and Happa Motorsports in Australia (largest Lysholm distributor) about making a small roots/lysholm blower for the protege. This would not really be an all out power maker like a turbo BUT...at it's most extreme could be coupled with my current SC and provide a true twincharger system that will have the low end torque of the roots blower with the rpm-based boost of the centrifugal blower. This keeps the roots blower from running out of huff up top and gives the car more low-end at the same time.

Intake temps will most likely be about as hot as a non-intercooled turbo system. I plan on fixing that with both a fmic and an aquamist system at higher boost levels.


The roots blower I'm looking is a standard M45 (smallest of the bunch). The M62 body housing is just too large to work with our cramped engine bays. The snout will be clocked 180* and the blower will be mounted to the head as an intake manifiold with the throttlebody being in the same location only horizontal as opposed to leaning up. Because I'm doing this it'll also allow me to use whatever size TB I want to fit on it.....65mm works well for me. (sssh)

Magnuson is supposed to be sending me the detailed measurements so I can start getting the plates machined. I'll have to hold off on going much further until I get jobber pricing from Eaton to buy a headunit at cost. Once I get that I can start putting together and seeing how difficult it's going to be to get belt wrap and tension on the back side of the engine. (hand)


Think anyone would buy a twin-supercharged P5?

[CasopoliS]

Fun! Subscribing

[greendragon]

A double huffer that should cool . Cant wait to see pics ,I know this will only be for you but please document the progrees here

[Peepsalot]

Use one of those fancy new-fangled rotrex SCs. (naughty)

[BRIAN MP5T]

The Rotrex will cost more than the car.. :)

[Peepsalot]

haha, yeah I was looking at prices. $1900 for one is pretty expensive

[Super Matty P]

$1900 for a headunit is nothing. The powerdynes I was using have a retail msrp of $2219. Look up a ATi Procharger. (the best centrifugal blower) They quoted me almost $3K for just the headunit at jobber pricing.

The eaton mock-up unit will cost me only about $400 brand new from the factory. Big difference in price.

[MyZmZm]

Subscribing for progress and info - now just mate that to a rotary in the P5 and I'll be happy as a clam! :D

[Super Matty P]

sheesh, rotary in a p5?

I have toyed with the thought of a Mid engine SHO-powered p5. I seriously doubt the wife will let me do it though.

[MyZmZm]

yeah, my current 'wet dream' if you will... :) after driving the RX8, I am officially in love with an engine

[Super Matty P]

RX8 = 183bhp/litre....can't knock that!

[CasopoliS]

I need to get out there and drive an RX-8... never driven one. Some people at rx8 club figured out the flaws with the Greddy Turbo kit and fixed them, which would be very nice. I am scared because the renesis is newer though.

good luck with the SC project

[Super Matty P]

My wifes RX8 was very fun to drive. I had to baby it with her in the car but lets just say that I got real familiar with the traction control system.

One nice thing about the renesis is it has 3 exhaust ports so it can spool a turbo pretty well (not a huge turbo but a medium turbo will spool faster). I think turbo guys are going to change over their 6port intake manifolds with a simple short runner design for peak power. Let the turbo create your lowend and just hang on.

This eaton blower I'm looking into is nothign more than a pet project. I had the idea while I was working in my shop on something and thought it would be neat to get measurements and see how difficult it would be.

[BRIAN MP5T]

The new rotaty seems to take less easily to boost.

[Super Matty P]

it has to do with the side seals more than the apex seals. Also each rotor housing has 1.5 exhaust ports but there is a wicked 90* bend in the exhaust outlet leaving the housing. Not sure yet how much more you can port it but it doesn't have the horrible restrictor like the older 13bs so it flows a lot more stock but probably not nearly as much when modified.

[Super Matty P]

Stupid Jackson Racing...I hate those idiots.

I called today to see if they could just sell me a headunit from a miata or focus kit that I can use to mock this up....the guy told me "it'd be cheaper to just buy a whole kit and sell off what you dont need"...."uh, your kits are $3,000...how much is your M45 headunit?" "it's $3,000". .. " You do know Magnuson Products sells them for $600-800 for the M62 brand new right?" "well then go buy one from them"....then hung up on me.

He's trying to stick it in my ass and then gets an attitude with me when I point out his price is almost 5 times higher than another vendors.

anywho, I'm still working on this...I think it's pretty feasible to do but I'm not sure how well it'll perform. I guess time will tell.

[BRIAN MP5T]

M-60's are all over the internet from COBALT-SS upgrades. It's a sealed unit that needs no oil feed lines, but it's rotation will only allow for 10 PSI as it's limit on a 2.0L motor..

[Super Matty P]

you mean M-62's?

I'm not making any progress on this right now....other stuff is more important. I do have the manifold it mounts to ready to go and I've started the design of the adapter that will bolt the new M62 to the manifold. Just have to have it cut.

I haven't taken the measurements yet for the nose drive but Magnusson quoted me about $250 for the custom nose.

Also, the blower will need a new TB and adapter so this will allow you to use any TB you want...like a 65mm ford TB since the TPS' match up to the mazdas.

[BRIAN MP5T]

Yes, M-62, My Bad..

[MetalSPEED]

interesting =)

no matter how hard we try with our turbo setups, nothing would be as unique as a twin supercharged P5 hehe

[BRIAN MP5T]

The Benifit of Twin SC would be useless.

The Drag of two chargers would negate any HP gains.

Twincharging with Turbo and SC is more viable.

[Super Matty P]

The Drag of two chargers would negate any HP gains.
.

that's not true at all. Sure it costs power to make power but if you have 1 SC making an extra 150whp and a SC making 80whp and combined it costs the engine 35whp to make that you're still 200+whp in the good.

you've gotta do the math on it...you can't just say it cancels it out.(boom7)

[anarchistchiken]

That's what everyone started saying back in the day when they ran out of other things to flame you with, haha.

[Super Matty P]

yeah...everyone said the SC was a waste because it would soak up so much power...

I dunno. I made 60whp extra on 4.5psi so if I used up 35whp to sping the blower that means I made 95whp on 4.5psi

[BRIAN MP5T]

that's not true at all. Sure it costs power to make power but if you have 1 SC making an extra 150whp and a SC making 80whp and combined it costs the engine 35whp to make that you're still 200+whp in the good.

you've gotta do the math on it...you can't just say it cancels it out.(boom7)


I understand that it's more complicated than just adding the numbers together. All I was trying to state was that when comparing Turbo and SC the only things that normally come up are Lag and Drag.

If you select the correct size of SC for the required A/R in the first place it should still be more effecient than trying to double up on Smaller S/C.

Bi-Turbo is interesting due to the reduced Lag issue. But Bi-SC just seems to be a bad idea when considering the options of Twin Turbo or Twin Charged Turbo/SC.

Less power wated IMO spinning the screws..

[Super Matty P]

yeah, I don't think anyone is interested in having a twin-sc for anything more than the uniqueness. I wouldn't even try to claim all out power over a turbo...just tghat you can make plenty of power and the "drag" issue is a non-issue when it comes down to it.

If you end up with an extra 100whp...thats what you got...you didnt' lose anything.

[BRIAN MP5T]

But if you can load an engine to 10 Psi on a turbo and 10 Psi on a SC. You would see a completely diferent dyno curve and peak HP...

[Super Matty P]

right, mine would look like an NA dyno and a turbo would have nothing down low until ti spools. ...also I'd probably have a flatter torque curve but not higher.

[BRIAN MP5T]

Hmmm, I think the turbo would peak sooner and higher then fall off if the WG was set to 10 Psi and the SC built 10 Psi at Redline.

Just an observation..

[Super Matty P]

nope, it'll make almost flat torque from start to finish... even though I didn't make a whole lot of boost on my last set-up I made a good 40tq almost across the range with only a 5tq variation give or take...the HP curve looked identical to an NA engine it just went higher and the torque started higher but stayed flat as a surfboard.

I've got the dyno posted on p-club I'll dig it up and show you....see if we can find another 160whp turbo dyno chart and we'll compare them side by side.

[Super Matty P]

http://www.mazda3club.com/showpost.php?p=329614&postcount=553

I was a little off on the 5tq variance but you see how flat it is...

[BRIAN MP5T]

I've got the dyno posted on p-club I'll dig it up and show you....see if we can find another 160whp turbo dyno chart and we'll compare them side by side.


That is not what i'm talking about. I'm not talking about two 160 HP Dynos, I'm talking about comparing two dynos at the same Max Pressure.

Ie.

4.5 Psi SC
vs.
4.5 Psi Turbo

[Super Matty P]

hmm...well it still would never be equal because I don't think there is a turbo that will have the same size compressor mine has. It's 7.5" across..just the wheel, not the housing.

If you're trying to compare apples to apples psi between something of such varying sizes won't be fair. A t25 at 5psi will make far less power and torque than my new blower at 5psi....thats why I was comparing power levels.

You'll see how a turbo making 160whp compares to a SC making 160whp. Also, just looking at the power curves you couldn't tell my car was SC'd at all...you can tell on a decent turbo system that there's a serious power gain once boost hits. The two charts would look noticeably different.

Either way we're debating semantics....the centirfugal SC feels and drives just like an NA engine no matter how you drive it. A turbo4 drives like a 4cyl until you stab it and then a second later it feels like a V8.

[BRIAN MP5T]

ok