Going Standalone

[Jeph]

So I am ditching my MPI in favor of an AEM hopefully soon. But i want to hear inputs from you guys who are already running standalones. What problems have you had with them, anything i should look out for, etc.

[Jeph]

So I am ditching my MPI in favor of an AEM hopefully soon. But i want to hear inputs from you guys who are already running standalones. What problems have you had with them, anything i should look out for, etc.

[pdhaudio83]

I'd go with sometime a touch more user friendly first, ESP if this car is your daily driver. Like the haltech or microtech

[pdhaudio83]

I'd go with sometime a touch more user friendly first, ESP if this car is your daily driver. Like the haltech or microtech

[Ken@ProtegeGarage]

i used a Haltech and can say that the interface as very user friendly. I am switching to a microtech very soon and from my experience the software and hardware is even easier to work with. before going with the AEM, give steve at NSN a holler. you might the features, usability and price better for the buck.

[Ken@ProtegeGarage]

i used a Haltech and can say that the interface as very user friendly. I am switching to a microtech very soon and from my experience the software and hardware is even easier to work with. before going with the AEM, give steve at NSN a holler. you might the features, usability and price better for the buck.

[Jeph]

I have been talking to steve a lot actually, and Beau actually referred me to him before i decided to go with the AEM.
I've played with the AEM software quite a bit, and its not difficult.

[Jeph]

I have been talking to steve a lot actually, and Beau actually referred me to him before i decided to go with the AEM.
I've played with the AEM software quite a bit, and its not difficult.

[Super Matty P]

why ditch the MPI? I heard it's the greatest ever?

[Super Matty P]

why ditch the MPI? I heard it's the greatest ever?

[Jeph]

Because my ecu keeps learning around it, and pulling fuel. It's a piggyback, and its always going to be at the mercy of the stock ecu, and i'm sick of it.

[Jeph]

Because my ecu keeps learning around it, and pulling fuel. It's a piggyback, and its always going to be at the mercy of the stock ecu, and i'm sick of it.

[Super Matty P]

oh ok, makes sense.

[Super Matty P]

oh ok, makes sense.

[Jeph]

Were you being sarcastic about the MPI, cause it is definitely not the greatest ever. A lot of people have problems with it, but at MSProtege.com, it all seems to get covered up.
Ask PDHaudio about the MPI, pain in the ass to tune, and keep tuned.

[Jeph]

Were you being sarcastic about the MPI, cause it is definitely not the greatest ever. A lot of people have problems with it, but at MSProtege.com, it all seems to get covered up.
Ask PDHaudio about the MPI, pain in the ass to tune, and keep tuned.

[Super Matty P]

i dont want to start bashing or a vendor fight or anything but yes. I was sarcastic.

It seems to me all of the big power people have ditched the mpi in favor of standalones. Everyone I've spoken with has had problems with it. I've even tried fixing one but the "ford guy" in me just said, "yank it out and run an FMU".

[Super Matty P]

i dont want to start bashing or a vendor fight or anything but yes. I was sarcastic.

It seems to me all of the big power people have ditched the mpi in favor of standalones. Everyone I've spoken with has had problems with it. I've even tried fixing one but the "ford guy" in me just said, "yank it out and run an FMU".

[Jeph]

I think my car would run better than it is right now with a FMU. It makes me mad, because i have this fully built setup, and i can't do shit with it because everytime i fire it up, it runs different than the time before.

[Jeph]

I think my car would run better than it is right now with a FMU. It makes me mad, because i have this fully built setup, and i can't do shit with it because everytime i fire it up, it runs different than the time before.

[Ken@ProtegeGarage]

microtech, haltech or AEM is the way to go. hell a stock MSP ecu has been proven to work with the thumper kit better than an mpi

[Ken@ProtegeGarage]

microtech, haltech or AEM is the way to go. hell a stock MSP ecu has been proven to work with the thumper kit better than an mpi

[Jeph]

Haha, when are you installing your microtech ken?

[Jeph]

Haha, when are you installing your microtech ken?

[Ken@ProtegeGarage]

as soon as my motor swap is complete, which should have been last year but events conspired against me. i've been dicked by the machine shop twice now, dicked by mazda on critical replacement parts and dicked by my paycheck :D

[Ken@ProtegeGarage]

as soon as my motor swap is complete, which should have been last year but events conspired against me. i've been dicked by the machine shop twice now, dicked by mazda on critical replacement parts and dicked by my paycheck :D

[t3ase]

Lemme know when you ditch the MPI.

[t3ase]

Lemme know when you ditch the MPI.

[Jeph]

Are you interested in it? It's kinda a crap shoot, it works well for some, not so well for others...

[Jeph]

Are you interested in it? It's kinda a crap shoot, it works well for some, not so well for others...

[NSNMotorsports]

The downside to the Microtech is that the system is relatively stripped. Makes it that much easier to get the car to run well and easier to tune, and saves a lot of bank.. (Haltech is next cheapest at 500 bucks more.. so). But I do admit that it is a more "basic" system... but I do have issues with individual cylinder trim, traction control, and knock protection that are in the more advanced standalones.

Ken will be a good reference point as far as how the Microtech compares, I think he will be very happy and the fact is the hardware is rock solid and the user interface is easy enough that people with kids can have their child tune the car for them. If you can press the "M" and the up, down, left, and right arrows you'll never need to touch another key. (well F1 to connect..).

The AEM and the Haltech will do the job nicely though.

[NSNMotorsports]

The downside to the Microtech is that the system is relatively stripped. Makes it that much easier to get the car to run well and easier to tune, and saves a lot of bank.. (Haltech is next cheapest at 500 bucks more.. so). But I do admit that it is a more "basic" system... but I do have issues with individual cylinder trim, traction control, and knock protection that are in the more advanced standalones.

Ken will be a good reference point as far as how the Microtech compares, I think he will be very happy and the fact is the hardware is rock solid and the user interface is easy enough that people with kids can have their child tune the car for them. If you can press the "M" and the up, down, left, and right arrows you'll never need to touch another key. (well F1 to connect..).

The AEM and the Haltech will do the job nicely though.

[Jeph]

Yeah, thanks for all your help steve, especially answering all my questions and everything. If all goes well, then things should be running this weekend.

[Jeph]

Yeah, thanks for all your help steve, especially answering all my questions and everything. If all goes well, then things should be running this weekend.

[NSNMotorsports]

No problem... I'm definitely here more to help than worry about sales... NSN only really affords me the opportunity for cheap parts and developing stuff... certainly doesn't pay any bills :)

[NSNMotorsports]

No problem... I'm definitely here more to help than worry about sales... NSN only really affords me the opportunity for cheap parts and developing stuff... certainly doesn't pay any bills :)

[CasopoliS]

I was sick of reading all the "reviews" (at msprotege)... nothing is consistent. So I just bought the Unichip and the car runs better than ever... and those guys are pretty cool at Unichip.

Anyway.... good luck in your search, the options you have laid out seem good from what I have read.

[NSNMotorsports]

The unichip does a good job for a set it and forget it unit. I've heard of detonation issues and that fuel cut remains... Have you had any such issues at all? How many psi are you running?

The plug and play is nice and that ties up a good 300-400 bucks of the cost of the unit right there!

[CasopoliS]

The unichip does a good job for a set it and forget it unit. I've heard of detonation issues and that fuel cut remains... Have you had any such issues at all? How many psi are you running?

The plug and play is nice and that ties up a good 300-400 bucks of the cost of the unit right there!

I have not had those issues, nor do I have fuel cut. I hardly drive it though. Its been in my garage for quite a while :(

The Unichip EBC took me to 16psi so that came off right away. My HKS EVC II holds me around 8 or 9 with a 10-11 peak. I never really boost much. Maybe I will take it out tonight for a spin.

[Jeph]

Agreed, I think i'll be much happier with a standalone

[terbow]

I just got my aem in the mail yesterday. Itll be pnp within a week (waiting on items to make harness). omg.

[505zoom]

Yea I don't blame you there Jeph. Mine has worked good for me, but that's only because I stripped it of any power it had to screw things up. With how I have it set up, the car runs well and it is safely making good power, but it is pretty much a super expensive EIC + timing unit with crappy resolution. Definitely leaves something to be desired unless you have some reason to defend Nick.(sssh)

[Super Matty P]

my thoughts exactly. It's a great extra injector controller.

[505zoom]

Great might be stretching it.

[terbow]

yea i dont think its a bad unit. Mine worked ok. it just seems to be too tempermental. Like if ur 02 is on its way out or something it will mess with the mpi (or probably any piggy)but it wont be enought to throw a code. Its to hard to fix the problems. One time i plugged my laptop in and it had ALLL ???'s instead of numbers. Mind you it worked fine 10 mins ago. If it had better software i think it would be a good unit, or if you just use it for EIC and timing.

[505zoom]

Nope. You had vac leaks. Your o2 was bad. Your laptop sucks. You don't know how to tune. You installed wrong. It's sad but true... instead of help, that is what most people who had problems got.

So back to the standalones... we need Ryan's ass to get in here and give a fresh update on the AEM. CWILL too... anyone heard from or invited those guys yet?

[terbow]

Nope. You had vac leaks. Your o2 was bad. Your laptop sucks. You don't know how to tune. You installed wrong. It's sad but true... instead of help, that is what most people who had problems got.

So back to the standalones... we need Ryan's ass to get in here and give a fresh update on the AEM. CWILL too... anyone heard from or invited those guys yet?

true. i was tryin to be positive. put down the salsa and chiiiil ;)

[Super Matty P]

yeah, on msprotege whenever I mentioned that I was flamed and banned. I'm trying to be positive.

p.s. is anyone interested in Ford ECU connectors if I can score a few sets?

[NSNMotorsports]

Yeah, I think the one major downside you guys will find with the AEM is that there is "too much" to do on it... it'll make it hard to get a stable locked tune... too many factors that can fudge up the car...

[Jeph]

I just got my aem in the mail yesterday. Itll be pnp within a week (waiting on items to make harness). omg.

When are you installing yours?

[Jeph]

Nope. You had vac leaks. Your o2 was bad. Your laptop sucks. You don't know how to tune. You installed wrong. It's sad but true... instead of help, that is what most people who had problems got.



Exactly, If you saw my Datalog where Beau had to come bail me out at 2 in the morning, you'd realize that something wasn't right, and it wasn't something wrong with my car, because it ran great earlier that night. THen we tuned it, it ran great, and 2 nights later, the same shit. Even Bigg Tim said it was crazy, and he'd never seen anything like it. But nooooo i must have a wiring problem, or a vac leak.

[Jeph]

Yeah, I think the one major downside you guys will find with the AEM is that there is "too much" to do on it... it'll make it hard to get a stable locked tune... too many factors that can fudge up the car...

WHat do you mean too much to do? I know that it has a lot of extra options that it can do, and some of those i'll use, but what are the other factors that can mess up the car?

[NSNMotorsports]

Trying to set up your knock maps, trying to mess with the traction control, DON"T play with the individual cylinder trim, messing with barometric corrections... etc etc.. they are all thing that if you set any of them wrong you'll have more things to worry about and the car will run odd etc... you'll find with a standalone that if you are not methodical and informed as to what you are doing with each setting that you'll find "phantom" spots in your maps once in a while that mess you up... the more factors you have, the more phantoms can arise.

[NSNMotorsports]

if you are good and methodical about it and only do fuel, air, and your first water and air temp corrections and then slowly add timing corrections etc, then you'll probably be okay... but if you try to tune a lot of it, or mess with external correction factors before you have it solidly driving every day regardless of conditions.. you'll chase yourself in circles and the car will NEVER run right.

[JDM Sam]

The unichip does a good job for a set it and forget it unit. I've heard of detonation issues and that fuel cut remains... Have you had any such issues at all? How many psi are you running?

The plug and play is nice and that ties up a good 300-400 bucks of the cost of the unit right there!

most those people honestly have issues underlying that they dont talk about.
so they automatically blame something else. out of all the interceptor systems unichip is one of the best ones for an interceptor.

[JDM Sam]

Trying to set up your knock maps, trying to mess with the traction control, DON"T play with the individual cylinder trim, messing with barometric corrections... etc etc.. they are all thing that if you set any of them wrong you'll have more things to worry about and the car will run odd etc... you'll find with a standalone that if you are not methodical and informed as to what you are doing with each setting that you'll find "phantom" spots in your maps once in a while that mess you up... the more factors you have, the more phantoms can arise.

basically he's saying you are playing the car engineer.

Would you know how much to correct and compensate for fuel and timing based on elevation, intake air temperature, voltage load, etc. etc. etc???
or what about when the knock sensor detects X amount of knock. If so which map will it switch to? What about after knock goes away? You are stepping into advanced EFI. Individual cylinder trim is tunable if you want to run a wideband in each exhaust port.

[JDM Sam]

Exactly, If you saw my Datalog where Beau had to come bail me out at 2 in the morning, you'd realize that something wasn't right, and it wasn't something wrong with my car, because it ran great earlier that night. THen we tuned it, it ran great, and 2 nights later, the same shit. Even Bigg Tim said it was crazy, and he'd never seen anything like it. But nooooo i must have a wiring problem, or a vac leak.

There's one in DFW that did the same crap. It's the new turbo module version. I think there's a few mixed up resistors or whatever inside a couple of them since he does hand make them. Then again Unichip's module is 20 times better than his. The Unichip actually still runs on your car even with a MIL/CEL on.

[JDM Sam]

yeah, on msprotege whenever I mentioned that I was flamed and banned. I'm trying to be positive.

p.s. is anyone interested in Ford ECU connectors if I can score a few sets?
You can buy them in other world markets easily. That's how Unichip makes OEM Ford PnP harnesses

[JDM Sam]

Yea I don't blame you there Jeph. Mine has worked good for me, but that's only because I stripped it of any power it had to screw things up. With how I have it set up, the car runs well and it is safely making good power, but it is pretty much a super expensive EIC + timing unit with crappy resolution. Definitely leaves something to be desired unless you have some reason to defend Nick.(sssh)
LOL he says he runs that shit on S2000s that rev past 9000 in one post.
VTECH. LMFAO. You run that shit on a s2000 and kiss your motor goodbye. It needs more than 8x16 and 1x16 tps map.

[NSNMotorsports]

most those people honestly have issues underlying that they dont talk about.
so they automatically blame something else. out of all the interceptor systems unichip is one of the best ones for an interceptor.

It is a decent interceptor... but it is still an interceptor... it can and will be overridden in various cases by the stock ECU.

You can't "really" do timing... and you can't "really" eliminate fuel cut. You CAN modify timing... and you can scale against fuel cut, but both events have major drawbacks to how they can and are done.

Will the car run great etc... yes... but can you get better performance and CONSISTENCY from a WELL tuned standalone... yes.

[JDM Sam]

yea i dont think its a bad unit. Mine worked ok. it just seems to be too tempermental. Like if ur 02 is on its way out or something it will mess with the mpi (or probably any piggy)but it wont be enought to throw a code. Its to hard to fix the problems. One time i plugged my laptop in and it had ALLL ???'s instead of numbers. Mind you it worked fine 10 mins ago. If it had better software i think it would be a good unit, or if you just use it for EIC and timing.
He fixed that shit with a new software version release after I posted a screen shot of a programming error code.

[NSNMotorsports]

LOL he says he runs that shit on S2000s that rev past 9000 in one post.
VTECH. LMFAO. You run that shit on a s2000 and kiss your motor goodbye. It needs more than 8x16 and 1x16 tps map.


It "steps" all the time too.. and everyone argues that it doesn't.. but I've SEEN it do it repeatedly.. and I've SEEN it lose maps as well... but no one likes to hear bad about the MPI.

[JDM Sam]

It is a decent interceptor... but it is still an interceptor... it can and will be overridden in various cases by the stock ECU.

You can't "really" do timing... and you can't "really" eliminate fuel cut. You CAN modify timing... and you can scale against fuel cut, but both events have major drawbacks to how they can and are done.

Will the car run great etc... yes... but can you get better performance and CONSISTENCY from a WELL tuned standalone... yes.
You'd be surprised. I personally run the Unichip and the maps have held in cases when I threw a CEL that would throw the PCM in limp mode. AFR and all.

[JDM Sam]

It "steps" all the time too.. and everyone argues that it doesn't.. but I've SEEN it do it repeatedly.. and I've SEEN it lose maps as well... but no one likes to hear bad about the MPI.

The newest software release fixes most the software bugs that I had. The old one was notorious for everything thats mentioned. I dicked with that thing so much I got sick of being the 3rd party tech line for that.

[NSNMotorsports]

basically he's saying you are playing the car engineer.

Would you know how much to correct and compensate for fuel and timing based on elevation, intake air temperature, voltage load, etc. etc. etc???
or what about when the knock sensor detects X amount of knock. If so which map will it switch to? What about after knock goes away? You are stepping into advanced EFI. Individual cylinder trim is tunable if you want to run a wideband in each exhaust port.

Right... and playing car engineer is not that big of a deal, and is quite doable, but it has to be done the right way... the more factors you have the more issues you can have... I get around the knock issues by running the JandS which takes care of it without causing any problems with the Microtech doing it's thing.... and then I run an EBC instead of using a system to do it because the EBC's on the market have way more features and control than what is in most EMS's...

Barometric is overrated as it takes some MAJOR changes to actually effect how the car runs...

Individual cylinder trim can be messed with a little without individual widebands by "reading" plugs, but you can't get it accurate usually.. and can risk other major issue.... I mechanically do it because my injectors are mapped so I know exactly how many cc's each injector performs and I put the highest ones in the "lean" cylinders and put the lesser injectors on the "rich" cylinders to balance out the performances there... but even stock ECU's don't bother with that as it isn't really needed... basically the big issue is that you have a ton of features that can also wreak a ton of havoc...

And as far as traction control... yeeha for yanking timing to try to kill the motor power... and you have to set it up based on rpm rate of change basically i believe.... which means if you set it wrong it stifles the car, or doesn't do anything etc... yet another thing that can gremlin up on you...

Then you still have to deal with the IAC, and the VICS, and fans, and etc etc...

My point being that having all that is great, but you will find you don't use a lot of it... and that it will cause a lot of problems. With far less features you can run more consistent and happy... and add extra systems if need be that will outperform the integrated ones you haev.

Either way though I think you WILL be happy with the AEM

[NSNMotorsports]

You'd be surprised. I personally run the Unichip and the maps have held in cases when I threw a CEL that would throw the PCM in limp mode. AFR and all.


Right, it'll do ok and it will hold more or less fine.. but you'll see it in back to back dyno runs and so forth... the system isn't monitoring timing closed loop... so it CAN'T know if it hits it's mark there, and I don't believe it close loop monitors the AFR either (would need a wideband input)... so while it may be trying to hit some rough modification values.. if the ECU changes those root values for one reason or another, the unichip will be lost and will be modifying mathematically to something else.

[JDM Sam]

Right, it'll do ok and it will hold more or less fine.. but you'll see it in back to back dyno runs and so forth... the system isn't monitoring timing closed loop... so it CAN'T know if it hits it's mark there, and I don't believe it close loop monitors the AFR either (would need a wideband input)... so while it may be trying to hit some rough modification values.. if the ECU changes those root values for one reason or another, the unichip will be lost and will be modifying mathematically to something else.

I couldn't tell you what it does in closed loop until I fly out there next month and have them break their system down completly in the different modules and units they use for each car. I'm not really worried about it controlling closed loop as that is left for the PCM. It is quite more advanced than the typical piggyback, with some features that I have yet to find out, such as MAF to MAP conversion. Seriously, I don't know how familiar you are with Porsches but their ecus are super sensitive and they have a unit that works well with those cars.

[JDM Sam]

Right... and playing car engineer is not that big of a deal, and is quite doable, but it has to be done the right way... the more factors you have the more issues you can have... I get around the knock issues by running the JandS which takes care of it without causing any problems with the Microtech doing it's thing.... and then I run an EBC instead of using a system to do it because the EBC's on the market have way more features and control than what is in most EMS's...

Barometric is overrated as it takes some MAJOR changes to actually effect how the car runs...

Individual cylinder trim can be messed with a little without individual widebands by "reading" plugs, but you can't get it accurate usually.. and can risk other major issue.... I mechanically do it because my injectors are mapped so I know exactly how many cc's each injector performs and I put the highest ones in the "lean" cylinders and put the lesser injectors on the "rich" cylinders to balance out the performances there... but even stock ECU's don't bother with that as it isn't really needed... basically the big issue is that you have a ton of features that can also wreak a ton of havoc...

And as far as traction control... yeeha for yanking timing to try to kill the motor power... and you have to set it up based on rpm rate of change basically i believe.... which means if you set it wrong it stifles the car, or doesn't do anything etc... yet another thing that can gremlin up on you...

Then you still have to deal with the IAC, and the VICS, and fans, and etc etc...

My point being that having all that is great, but you will find you don't use a lot of it... and that it will cause a lot of problems. With far less features you can run more consistent and happy... and add extra systems if need be that will outperform the integrated ones you haev.

Either way though I think you WILL be happy with the AEM

I would agree about the AEM but you will seriously have to RTFM with the AEM to get the most out of it.

[NSNMotorsports]

I couldn't tell you what it does in closed loop until I fly out there next month and have them break their system down completly in the different modules and units they use for each car. I'm not really worried about it controlling closed loop as that is left for the PCM. It is quite more advanced than the typical piggyback, with some features that I have yet to find out, such as MAF to MAP conversion. Seriously, I don't know how familiar you are with Porsches but their ecus are super sensitive and they have a unit that works well with those cars.

My point was you CAN'T ever do closed loop timing... there is no way to measure when the spark actually occured versus when you intended it to. The unichip would have to have an "absolute" timing map like a standalone to actually hold timing absolute.

Also, for it to eliminate fuel cut it has to scale the MAF voltage... when you scale it because a MAF signal is an absolute measure, the maps are adjusted differently and you suddenly need to redo everything because the stock ECU map is no longer valid... which affects ALL of your timing and fuel and correction factors... which is not good basically... if you scale a MAP to MAF you end up with a similar issue if the scaling is not perfectly identical in all cases.. basically the stock ECU has values that you can't change with the piggy and when you change the root value that theose maps rely on you fudge and move everything else in the system. You can then correct them again with the piggy and so forth, but you are then suddenly to the point of having to do all the work of a standalone yet end up lacking knowing what is actually going on, or having absolute values.

[NSNMotorsports]

I would agree about the AEM but you will seriously have to RTFM with the AEM to get the most out of it.

Right... and AEM and Haltech are great units.... but the reason I stay behind Microtech is the cost and the ease of use. you can teach a chimp to do the rough tuning on a Microtech in a couple of hours... good luck on the others...

[NSNMotorsports]

Keep in mind that my opinion on the Unichip is that it is a good unit, it stays pretty stable (at least compared to the MPI), but that it is still going to be subject to the stock ECU by nature of being a piggy (to a lesser extent than others mind you), but my single biggest gripe with it is that the end user can't do any tuning with it. You pay that much money for a unit it SHOULD be adjustable.

Great unit overall though, and a good fit for a lot of people.

[pdhaudio83]

The haltech can be tuned fairly easily, but to get a good tune, there definitely is a learning curve.

[NSNMotorsports]

I don't doubt it is easy.. I've played with the software some... but once you see/use the Microtech interface then it makes all sorts of sense :)

[bazooka joe]

great post! terbow, we need to hook up man! i want to see your car and the aem!! your doing your own harness?

[JDM Sam]

Keep in mind that my opinion on the Unichip is that it is a good unit, it stays pretty stable (at least compared to the MPI), but that it is still going to be subject to the stock ECU by nature of being a piggy (to a lesser extent than others mind you), but my single biggest gripe with it is that the end user can't do any tuning with it. You pay that much money for a unit it SHOULD be adjustable.

Great unit overall though, and a good fit for a lot of people.

you do understand why though right. so the typical user who doesnt
understand engine dynamics screws something up and then fubars the product reputation. hks fcon vpro is the same in this aspect and power fc distribution is the same way cept it is end user tuneable.

[Jeph]

It is a decent interceptor... but it is still an interceptor... it can and will be overridden in various cases by the stock ECU.

You can't "really" do timing... and you can't "really" eliminate fuel cut. You CAN modify timing... and you can scale against fuel cut, but both events have major drawbacks to how they can and are done.

Will the car run great etc... yes... but can you get better performance and CONSISTENCY from a WELL tuned standalone... yes.

Exactly, but if you're always pulling 15 UNITS of timing it will be pulling 15 units regardless of what your stock ecu is doing.
AND I hate how it is units, not degrees, how much does one unit represent?!

[Jeph]

you do understand why though right. so the typical user who doesnt
understand engine dynamics screws something up and then fubars the product reputation. hks fcon vpro is the same in this aspect and power fc distribution is the same way cept it is end user tuneable.

Don't you have to be an authorized tuner for hks to tune the fcon though?

[JDM Sam]

The haltech can be tuned fairly easily, but to get a good tune, there definitely is a learning curve.

The hardest part is setting it up from scratch especially the cold startup.
There's a certain order you have to do it. And it friggin takes trial and error and at least 2 sets of plugs.

[JDM Sam]

Don't you have to be an authorized tuner for hks to tune the fcon though?
Yep, you have to be a direct dealer and HKS trained and a bit more of their checklist before you are a HKS Pro dealer/tuner.

[JDM Sam]

Exactly, but if you're always pulling 15 UNITS of timing it will be pulling 15 units regardless of what your stock ecu is doing.
AND I hate how it is units, not degrees, how much does one unit represent?!
Get a scan tool software like nology pc dyno and you can read what your sensors say your timing is. If someone says thats inaccurate thats horseshit b/c thats how DIS ignition systems work is off the crank and cam angle sensor.

[terbow]

Right... and AEM and Haltech are great units.... but the reason I stay behind Microtech is the cost and the ease of use. you can teach a chimp to do the rough tuning on a Microtech in a couple of hours... good luck on the others...

Ive read through the AEM Manual twice and it seems fairly straightforward. I had alot of problem with the MPI cause the manual wasnt as in depth for someone like me and its just easier to ask SAM which i wont be doin much with the AEM. I like the microtech also, i just got a good deal on it with the certain someone who owes me a motor.

I definately know what im in for, and i dont mind learning from scratch, it makes more sense to me than being handed a map so i look forward to it. The extra maps you need are just for cold starts, or under certain temps etc as u already know, so i understand how it works and it seems easy enough once the trial and error is all set cause those extra maps probably wont change much even if i change my setup)

so we will see what this chimp can do.

http://www.t3rbow.com/chimp.jpg

and yea thats my face lol, did it on the honeymoon, gotta love disney.

[Jeph]

Right... and AEM and Haltech are great units.... but the reason I stay behind Microtech is the cost and the ease of use. you can teach a chimp to do the rough tuning on a Microtech in a couple of hours... good luck on the others...

Agreed, but my choice to do the AEM had other determining factors besides the features.

[terbow]

great post! terbow, we need to hook up man! i want to see your car and the aem!! your doing your own harness?

yea definately. its been hectic, i apologize for that. And yea im makin my own pnp harness cause i just cant avoid emissions.

[Jeph]

The hardest part is setting it up from scratch especially the cold startup.
There's a certain order you have to do it. And it friggin takes trial and error and at least 2 sets of plugs.

Cold start will be hard to setup, but Ryan is already running the AEM so we have some good base maps to start with. It will just be a bit different because i'll have 550 injectors, and he has 440's

[NSNMotorsports]

you do understand why though right. so the typical user who doesnt
understand engine dynamics screws something up and then fubars the product reputation. hks fcon vpro is the same in this aspect and power fc distribution is the same way cept it is end user tuneable.


Oh yeah.. I definitely understand that... but most of the people that are getting into needing an engine management system that costs a lot or has a lot of turbo.. HOPEFULLY know enough to do their own tuning with a little training.. now when you get John D Rockefeller who had mommy and daddy buy and build his turbo'ed car... he DEFINITELY shouldn't have anything like an AEM, Haltech, or Microtech.

[NSNMotorsports]

Cold start will be hard to setup, but Ryan is already running the AEM so we have some good base maps to start with. It will just be a bit different because i'll have 550 injectors, and he has 440's


all you need is my injector times and you'll be fine... I can give you data from startups that will show you the cranking injector open times and the idle injector open times... you get it to nail those and you won't have any startup issues.

[Jeph]

SWEET. how can i get those from you? email, fax, pm?

[NSNMotorsports]

Ive read through the AEM Manual twice and it seems fairly straightforward. I had alot of problem with the MPI cause the manual wasnt as in depth for someone like me and its just easier to ask SAM which i wont be doin much with the AEM. I like the microtech also, i just got a good deal on it with the certain someone who owes me a motor.

I definately know what im in for, and i dont mind learning from scratch, it makes more sense to me than being handed a map so i look forward to it. The extra maps you need are just for cold starts, or under certain temps etc as u already know, so i understand how it works and it seems easy enough once the trial and error is all set cause those extra maps probably wont change much even if i change my setup)

so we will see what this chimp can do.

and yea thats my face lol, did it on the honeymoon, gotta love disney.

I'm sure you can figure it out... it'll just take longer... the microtech honestly has like 20 screens TOTAL... for every setting included in that... and all relevant factors are on the same screen together... makes it easy..


With a wife that hott you actually left the hotel room long enough on the honeymoon to see disney??? :)

[Jeph]

With a wife that hott you actually left the hotel room long enough on the honeymoon to see disney??? :)

(rofl3)

[terbow]

wow u guys are animals with the wife thing hahaha.

Yea it definately seems like a good unit (Micro) but i also have aem tuners near me that i know are good so i can at least have a sholder to lean on if i have to, it all kinda leaned toward the AEM for me with the deal i got otherwise i woulda went to you as u know.

[NSNMotorsports]

SWEET. how can i get those from you? email, fax, pm?

I'll post them up.. I think everyone should share injector times because that will help everyone out..

I can tell you that my cold idle injector open time is as high as 1.9 but usually more around 1.6 ms fading down to about 1.3. When fully hot my times are usually more around 1.19 ms open time.

Cranking when hot is something around 3ms. Cranking when uber cold... is about 6.6ms.

[NSNMotorsports]

wow u guys are animals with the wife thing hahaha.

Yea it definately seems like a good unit (Micro) but i also have aem tuners near me that i know are good so i can at least have a sholder to lean on if i have to, it all kinda leaned toward the AEM for me with the deal i got otherwise i woulda went to you as u know.

LOL... the wife is cute... and you obviously love her plenty because she is in and on pretty much everything you do. So we have to give you a little crap, and apparently some guys get all the luck (hott cars, hott girls).

Yeah, I know the deals some of you guys got on the AEM's. Any tuner can run any EMS roughly.. just a matter of what they are more "familiar" with... sides my help and support is always FREE! :) and I even help you bastards with other EMS's... :D

[terbow]

haha true im lucky. my cars not hot tho lol

hey in my defense, i was gonna jump on the micro but someone wanted to give the "CEL elimination" deal to their brother ;) and i didnt have enough for the full unit. so HA

[JDM Sam]

Post your coolant correct factor too. I have to go look up my Haltech files for the ones I run.

[JDM Sam]

Ive read through the AEM Manual twice and it seems fairly straightforward. I had alot of problem with the MPI cause the manual wasnt as in depth for someone like me and its just easier to ask SAM which i wont be doin much with the AEM. I like the microtech also, i just got a good deal on it with the certain someone who owes me a motor.
.
you call me anyways just to trash talk. (evil)

hahah you posted a pic of your true self! show everyone the halloween costume!

[NSNMotorsports]

I posted it in the Microtech library on msprotege.com...

I'm leaving work now... so I'll be out for a number of hours.. maybe get back on later.

[terbow]

you call me anyways just to trash talk. (evil)

hahah you posted a pic of your true self! show everyone the halloween costume!

no the costume is sacred.

[JDM Sam]

I'm out weekend for me. Tired of making phone calls.

[Jeph]

Haha, i'm out to install my AEM!!!! be back when its done...

[terbow]

enjoy, keep me updated. mines goin in next week.

[Killer 8]

Alright, out of all this i'm starting to think the mpi w/ grey box that i will be getting back with my MAM SS kit is not in the best interest for me because it is from what people on here and on the other forums have said is that the mpi isn't living up to the standard of safty and realiablity. I have been thinking that i should get the Microtech LT8 Standalone Engine Management System that they are selling on protege garage for like a g but to do that i will have to sell the mpi. Just to help me skip the heart pain should i hook the mpi up and see if it works right or should i just try to sell it (never used) and buy the micro tech. i ask cuz engines where never made cheap and when in doubt get a second opinion! i hate wasting time on bull.

[NSNMotorsports]

People on msprotege.com should snap up the MPI without too much issue... I'd just go that route and call it good :)

[terbow]

yea they go for 400 all day.

Also i agree with Moeed. it did work for me at first. ANY tuning is better than none.

[moeed]

Alright, out of all this i'm starting to think the mpi w/ grey box that i will be getting back with my MAM SS kit is not in the best interest for me because it is from what people on here and on the other forums have said is that the mpi isn't living up to the standard of safty and realiablity. I have been thinking that i should get the Microtech LT8 Standalone Engine Management System that they are selling on protege garage for like a g but to do that i will have to sell the mpi. Just to help me skip the heart pain should i hook the mpi up and see if it works right or should i just try to sell it (never used) and buy the micro tech. i ask cuz engines where never made cheap and when in doubt get a second opinion! i hate wasting time on bull.
Do what you will be happy with. For me the piggy did it, but you wont go wrong with steve and the micro either.

[greendragon]

I realize that the stand alone fuel system is more for the turbos ,but would a N/A engine with header ,cams and cam gears ,intake .benifit from some sort of fuel management , The cost factor would be expensive , and probably not worth it . Still would it help .

[Bigg Tim]

You know I have to post about the MPI. It does work!! All of the cars, but 1, that I have done worked exactly like it should. I tell people all the time that if they have a problem, post it. I have NEVER told anyone to hide an issue. The 1 car that didn't work had something wrong with it before, it drove like ass when I picked it up from Beau's. I guess he won't tell you that since they have some big thing going between them.

I am going almost 3 years with no issues, so it works when done right. How many people have problems that they find and fix but bever post about becauase they are too embarrased? Those things don't come out, so it makes it all look bad and the haters like to egg it on.

I have also always said that if you don't want to tune, don't get it. So Jeph, sorry you are having issues, but I could tell from the beginning that you already had your mind set. You never got back with me and no offense to Beau, but he is not the one to go to for MPI help!

Anyone else, make your own mind up, research and figure out what YOU want to do first!!!! Then decide what's best for you. The MPI does more then what most people think because they don't take the time. Now flame on!

[terbow]

no flames sir, were all on the same page. mine worked but i got rid of it before the software update which was the majority of my problems.

i cant speak for everyones issues tho.

edit: oh and welcome!

[Bigg Tim]

This shit got busy quick. When I first logged on on the 15th or so, there wasn't anything here.

[terbow]

yea and u dont have to sift through 90 which springs posts :)

[Killer 8]

All right if i get these injectors and a little help from the people that have the MPI in NM than i'm just going to keep it cuz i just went through ALOT of the old threads and it think I'll stick to it cuz most of the error was Human related so I'll stick to it and take it slow. if anything I'll make a drive out to Arizona to get the setup checked over by Big Tim if you don't mind losing a few hours of a Saturday once i get all the Lego's(parts) stacked right I'll buy the food and drinks. bang for buck with some lookin up won me over.

[Bigg Tim]

I'm almost always available to help.

[pdhaudio83]

I'm not going to say much, but I will WATCH this thread like a hawk, because somethings don't sit right.

[terbow]

I can see where u get that landmine tripwire feeling but i think and hope were all adults and shit runs smooooooove right? :)

[pdhaudio83]

Well, I thought MPNick was an adult, but I hear his conduct has been anything but above reproach.

[Bigg Tim]

Is this because someone posted positive stuff about the MPI? I always wish people the best with what they do. If they feel standalone is better for them, then more power to them. I don't carry grudges!

[moeed]

Is this because someone posted positive stuff about the MPI? I always wish people the best with what they do. If they feel standalone is better for them, then more power to them. I don't carry grudges!

Tim good to see you here man.

Its true a lot of you don't like nick. But I know he will help me if I need it. His product is a good one and I have no issues or complaints, but just a quick car that I hope to make quicker.

You speak of no vendor bashing, but when it comes to nick and his product, a lot of you are hypocritical.

[terbow]

im Switzerland baby!

[pdhaudio83]

To each, his own :)

If you like the MPI, awesome!
If you like the Haltech, awesome!
If you like the AEM, awesome!

If you mock people or say they are stupid because they ran the MPI/AEM/HALTECH setup or couldn't figure it out, no good! :)

Back OT :)

[NSNMotorsports]

I realize that the stand alone fuel system is more for the turbos ,but would a N/A engine with header ,cams and cam gears ,intake .benifit from some sort of fuel management , The cost factor would be expensive , and probably not worth it . Still would it help .

One of my guys shaved over a half second off his 1/4 mile time just by adding the Microtech on an NA car... soo :)

[NSNMotorsports]

You speak of no vendor bashing, but when it comes to nick and his product, a lot of you are hypocritical.

We do all probably need to do better... but there is a lot of residual bitterness from all the BS that got pulled. I'm sorry but when people rip your product and then you point out an issue and they ignore your questions etc, and when there is just generally hostility and back stabbing etc.. it can color perspective considerably.

[Killer 8]

true i went through a lot of the old threads earlier to today and the answers to some went without a response, others did but it just looked bad all around in some cases although after awhile he did respond more often

[terbow]

Haha, i'm out to install my AEM!!!! be back when its done...

sooo.... howd it go?

[ApocMan]

I love the MPI and it has worked great for me and for JBreed...

I'm sure all the others work great too..

and Nick has been the greatest to me...

Go with what you like and what works for you and also be sure you like the vendor you choose... I feel the more you and a vendor click the better the success you will have with your choice of EMS...

[Ken@ProtegeGarage]

You speak of no vendor bashing, but when it comes to nick and his product, a lot of you are hypocritical.

please point out to me anything in this thread that you feel is vendor bashing and i will address it. people whom have dealt personally with nick and not had the same pleasant experience you have had is not, however, vendor bashing.

as one of the primary owners and admins of this forum i am staunchly committed to upholding the own rules we put into place. if you feel that we have been hypocritical or violated those rules, please address me in a PM or publically. i have known or dealt with many of you all for years on other forums and if anything you should all be aware of my commitment to my word.

thank you, happy motoring
Ken

[Jeph]

It isn't in as of yet, we are going to start early in the morning.
And to Tim, I am done posting in MSProtege because no matter what i say it will always be my fault it doesn't run right. Nick won't listen to me or offer how to fix it. I know you've tried your hardest to help me out, and i appreciate that. But I'm done with that specific thread. Its irrelevant anyway since i will have the AEM installed soon.
Yay for getting my car running!

[moeed]

microtech, haltech or AEM is the way to go. hell a stock MSP ecu has been proven to work with the thumper kit better than an mpi

i would honestly not send your parts to nick for machine work. i have heard quite a few horror stories since just before christmas about the quality outcome.

What basis was this statement made on? Who's car was it? This will explain to me the context of your statement if I know who it was.

id say this seems like a bash on a product or service, and thats from you mister admin sir (boom7)

Thats like someone saying dont buy parts from mam due to the turn around time. With that statement implying that mam is slow to ship out parts and should stay away from them. Beau did a nice job on ryan's ss kit from what I have seen, but do you see what I am saying? Vague statements like that can be costly to vendors and give people who have no experience with a vendor a sour taste before even communicating with a vendor. I guess there is a fine line between what one calls a review, and what one calls vendor bashing.

[moeed]

I dont want to cause problems here, so this will be the last post I make in this thread. Sorry.

[Ken@ProtegeGarage]

id say this seems like a bash on a product, and thats from you mister admin sir (boom7)

it was dyno proven that a stock mazdaspeed ecu worked better with beau's thumper kit than the mpi tuner. the car made much more power for starters and was much more drivable. in that respect its fact, not bash. have i personally played with an MPI tuner? yes. have i played with a haltech? yes. do i prefer the haltech over the MPI? yes. in that respect, thats opinion.

"mister admin sir" - there is no need to be sarcastic. i may have been a little harsh in my initial statement, and like steve/NSN said there are hard feelings from the gross disrespect nick has shown us in the past, and for some continues to do. from this point on i'll try and refrain from allowing that to seep into thing i post.

personally, i was gravy with nick until very recently when it was brought to my attention by several people he was outright lying about me to customers. before i was a vendor i was not keen on nick or the mpi. since becoming a vendor i have never posted in nick's threads, never attacked him on msprotege, never told a customer of mine to not buy from him and i have even apologized to him for what i said before i was a vendor. as far as i am concerned, you can take that to the bank.

i know some people whom are very happy with nick. i know some people who are not happy with nick, some which have legit reasons and others no. i am sure there are people who are happy and not happy with me. this is the nature of business. i would have no problem with nick and have done my absolute damndest to make amends with him, and that has not only gone ignored but also been supposedly rewarded with public slander.

[Ken@ProtegeGarage]

I dont want to cause problems here, so this will be the last post I make in this thread. Sorry.

you are not causing problems, making me upset or needing to apologize. we're all grown up here and its not like msprotege where its going to erupt into flamewar.

and as for the machine shop remark, i've been contacted by one of his customers for engine parts because an MPI built engine "fell to pieces" according to the owner. i have had two customers contact me about new fuel solutions because the fuel rail work nick had done for both of them was poor. when i hear two different people with the exact same problem, from a customer's stand point it is hard for me to recommend someone.

[jrodhotrod]

Great thread guys, full of useful information. If this thread were over on that "other" site it would have ended up in the dumpster a long time ago.

But I do have a question for Terbow and Steve.

You mentioned about passing emissions. With the haltech you cut the memory wire to the ECU to avoid a CEL. I talked to Beau on the phone and he mentioned that you don't cut the memory wire with the AEM but it will throw and store a CEL in the ECU, so you are still screwed passing emissions.

Back a long time ago Steve mentioned that he was researching a way to get the Microtech to pass OBDII inspections, I assume this involves leaving the memory wire to the ECU inplace, and I also assume you might be able to apply the same trick to the Haltech or AEM? What's the word on this?

Right now with my Haltech I get no Check Engine Lights, but if you plug in a scan tool it says not ready because it doesn't complete enough drive cycles as the ECU is reset every time you turn the car off, so no pass on inspection when the time comes.

[Bigg Tim]

We do all probably need to do better... but there is a lot of residual bitterness from all the BS that got pulled. I'm sorry but when people rip your product and then you point out an issue and they ignore your questions etc, and when there is just generally hostility and back stabbing etc.. it can color perspective considerably.

You guys talk about not answering questions, what about back in the day when Hiboost was making claims about IDC and never providing more info on it? What about his dyno's that he never provided more info on? Nick is not the only one who leaves things open. So singling 1 out and not the other isn't right.

Jeph--good luck with the AEM. I knew you were going with it since you never really tried to stay on top of giving me info to try to help, but that's cool, it's your money and your car and no one can make that decision for you.

Just make sure you get more then a BS WOT tuned map. Make sure Beau actually TEACHES you how to tune ALL the maps so you can get it done. There's a lot more for you to do with the AEM and just going out on the highway and romping on it isn't how you tune. You need to know how to tune the low and midrange also. Hopefully you will have luck with it. (thumb)

[NSNMotorsports]

You guys talk about not answering questions, what about back in the day when Hiboost was making claims about IDC and never providing more info on it? What about his dyno's that he never provided more info on? Nick is not the only one who leaves things open. So singling 1 out and not the other isn't right.


This is true, there are multiples that do it... the only one I've ever had contact with that has done it was the person of discussion.. and that person has "called me out" before and I've posted facts to back up things I say. When someone says "it doesn't work that way" and I post up information showing why it does or would have to work that way and they respond with silence or "your wrong"... that was my point.

But I do understand where you are coming from, and this is a topic we should probably all drop in favor of being a "better" community.

[NSNMotorsports]

Back a long time ago Steve mentioned that he was researching a way to get the Microtech to pass OBDII inspections, I assume this involves leaving the memory wire to the ECU inplace, and I also assume you might be able to apply the same trick to the Haltech or AEM? What's the word on this?


My only problem right now is I lack a car that is setup for me to get going on this. When Ken gets going running the Microtech on his car, we'll probably do it on his if my brother doesn't get one by then as well...

We are NOT messing with the memory or anything... we are basically letting the ECU see all of the necessary sensors and faking a few sensors so that it happily believes that the car is running along perfectly from what it wants... That way it doesn't throw any CEL's. The most complex parts will be faking the two O2 sensors for it... everything else I have done already. So the ECU will scan clean without codes and even show the motor running.

[Ken@ProtegeGarage]

steve, OBD compliance is going to very important for me so you can be sure i will be all over that when the time comes

[JDM Sam]

truncated post
Copy & Paste the AV section only threads from MSPROTEGE.com about his behind the forum flamewar beef with every vendor.

[terbow]

what i did (in the process of doing rather) is i took a msp harnress and cut it, i then got a protege ecu and took the connector off, so all the AEM wires that are used never make it to the ecu, instead they go right to the connectors, so it is technically like they are cut but in reality they are just cut on the jumper harnress. so when i have to get tested ill just lower the boost and put it back to stock ecu for the test.

Great thread guys, full of useful information. If this thread were over on that "other" site it would have ended up in the dumpster a long time ago.

But I do have a question for Terbow and Steve.

You mentioned about passing emissions. With the haltech you cut the memory wire to the ECU to avoid a CEL. I talked to Beau on the phone and he mentioned that you don't cut the memory wire with the AEM but it will throw and store a CEL in the ECU, so you are still screwed passing emissions.

Back a long time ago Steve mentioned that he was researching a way to get the Microtech to pass OBDII inspections, I assume this involves leaving the memory wire to the ECU inplace, and I also assume you might be able to apply the same trick to the Haltech or AEM? What's the word on this?

Right now with my Haltech I get no Check Engine Lights, but if you plug in a scan tool it says not ready because it doesn't complete enough drive cycles as the ECU is reset every time you turn the car off, so no pass on inspection when the time comes.

[LinuxRacr]

I'll post them up.. I think everyone should share injector times because that will help everyone out..

I can tell you that my cold idle injector open time is as high as 1.9 but usually more around 1.6 ms fading down to about 1.3. When fully hot my times are usually more around 1.19 ms open time.

Cranking when hot is something around 3ms. Cranking when uber cold... is about 6.6ms.

Great thread guys. Loving the civility. I just have a preference for my Haltech E6X over the MPI. That is all I am going to say today.

Steve,

You are posting the injector open time. I guess the trick will be factoring in all the correction maps that one would use with their particular Stand Alone, tweeking each so the sum output is the desired injector open time.

[Ken@ProtegeGarage]

Copy & Paste the AV section only threads from MSPROTEGE.com about his behind the forum flamewar beef with every vendor.

the purpose of the vendor views section on msprotege is to have a place not viewable by Joe Customer where vendors can vent, rant, piss, moan, talk shop, etc. It has since sadly become a place where vendors can freely bash eachother as well.

While I do not agree with Nick's candor or conduct towards people (myself included) in that section of that forum, I also do not feel it nessecary to damage the integrity of that secrecy agreed upon by vendors on msprotege or further divide people on the matter here on flyin protege by cutting and pasting said posts here.

[505zoom]

Great point Ken and I agree 100%. That stuff in there is disturbing, but it is not something that should be made public to everyone.

[LinuxRacr]

Great point Ken and I agree 100%. That stuff in there is disturbing, but it is not something that should be made public to everyone.
(mswerd)

[bazooka joe]

what i did (in the process of doing rather) is i took a msp harnress and cut it, i then got a protege ecu and took the connector off, so all the AEM wires that are used never make it to the ecu, instead they go right to the connectors, so it is technically like they are cut but in reality they are just cut on the jumper harnress. so when i have to get tested ill just lower the boost and put it back to stock ecu for the test.

holy crap! if i hear you right that's a lot of work tony!

[NSNMotorsports]

Great thread guys. Loving the civility. I just have a preference for my Haltech E6X over the MPI. That is all I am going to say today.

Steve,

You are posting the injector open time. I guess the trick will be factoring in all the correction maps that one would use with their particular Stand Alone, tweeking each so the sum output is the desired injector open time.


Right, but at least the injector open times as logged are absolute and not dependent on the system... so from that standpoint while they may be tricky to get, they are more universal for people to use.

[pdhaudio83]

This MPI bickering & stuff has got to stop tim and moeed.

[Mental Addiction]

Copy & Paste the AV section only threads from MSPROTEGE.com about his behind the forum flamewar beef with every vendor.


We are not suppose to let out any info in that section. Copy/pasting it over here would get us banned or in some sort of trouble with Antoine. Ken Steve and myslef can tell you its been interesting.

[Super Matty P]

We all fear Antoine.

What's shakin' Beau?

[Mental Addiction]

We all fear Antoine.

What's shakin' Beau?


Same here.. Nothing new.

[Bigg Tim]

This MPI bickering & stuff has got to stop tim and moeed.

Dude WTF!!!!!! Where is the bickering????? The last thing I posted, which I guess was deleted, said that I wished him luck with the AEM. Where the fuck is the bickering. For someone who says they want to keep this forum different then MSprotege, you're doing a hell of a job keeping it different. Reading into things too much are we?

[NSNMotorsports]

Dude WTF!!!!!! Where is the bickering????? The last thing I posted, which I guess was deleted, said that I wished him luck with the AEM. Where the fuck is the bickering. For someone who says they want to keep this forum different then MSprotege, you're doing a hell of a job keeping it different. Reading into things too much are we?


I didn't follow him either.. so no idea... but as those annoying mediating types like to say... take a deep breath or two and let it go... I'm not sure if I saw your post or not.... I'm generally not a big fan of post deletions in general, too much gets "covered up" that way.

[Mental Addiction]

My post's where deleted as well. They where at you Tim.

[pdhaudio83]

Tim, I cleaned the thread up because too much of it was of Jeph's old problems. He decided to get the AEM, so no point in arguing about his old problems.

[Mental Addiction]

I didn't follow him either.. so no idea... but as those annoying mediating types like to say... take a deep breath or two and let it go... I'm not sure if I saw your post or not.... I'm generally not a big fan of post deletions in general, too much gets "covered up" that way.


I agree. Deleting threads isn't always the best thing. Alot of what was being said is true and should stay. It wasn't a fight, but more of a debate.

[505zoom]

I think the issue here is that nobody is going to change their mind from having this debate YET again. Tim obviously likes the MPI, he thinks that there are no problems with it unless it is the users fault, and thusly he thinks that it is the best way to go for EMS. Steve, Beau, Pat, myself, and several others feel that this isn't the case, and again, NONE of us are going to change our minds from having the same old debate time and time again.

I'm gonna have to agree with Pat here and say that if there needs to be talk about the MPI, we'll start a new thread... this thread is about STANDALONE EMS, and should be kept on topic. If there is anything that I feel can get out of hand here on this new board, it is this MPI vs the world fight.

On the other hand, I think we are all mature enough to not need our posts deleted, so I suggest that we start a new thread about the MPI and then undelete and move all of the posts from this thread into there. Thoughts?

[Jeph]

A lot of it was off topic because it was my old problems, b ut it still shows why i went down the path i did...

[505zoom]

A lot of it was off topic because it was my old problems, b ut it still shows why i went down the path i did...

I fully understand that, and even I myself am guilty of making comments early in the thread about the MPI and reasons that you are switching. Although it isn't grossly off topic, I still think that this debate doesn't need to happen in here. Like I said, debate about the MPI needs it's own thread IMHO.

[NSNMotorsports]

I think it is more informative to have a piggy versus standalone debate. I think a lot of people don't get the technical aspects as to the what and why. I'm eventually going to write some documents and publish them to our website and I'll provide them here (forum not thread) if you guys desire that will show the engineering differences. I'm an electronics control systems engineer by day... it's what I do, between that and all the time I've spent with a 'scope on the car I can share a lot of info on the whole story.

[Bigg Tim]

I think the issue here is that nobody is going to change their mind from having this debate YET again. Tim obviously likes the MPI, he thinks that there are no problems with it unless it is the users fault, and thusly he thinks that it is the best way to go for EMS. Steve, Beau, Pat, myself, and several others feel that this isn't the case, and again, NONE of us are going to change our minds from having the same old debate time and time again.

I'm gonna have to agree with Pat here and say that if there needs to be talk about the MPI, we'll start a new thread... this thread is about STANDALONE EMS, and should be kept on topic. If there is anything that I feel can get out of hand here on this new board, it is this MPI vs the world fight.

On the other hand, I think we are all mature enough to not need our posts deleted, so I suggest that we start a new thread about the MPI and then undelete and move all of the posts from this thread into there. Thoughts?

I do like the MPI and no I don't think it's ALL the users fault. There were problems with TM's and SW. I have helped enough people to see that about 99% of the problems have been with the car or install. People just don't like to admit when they are wrong. I will be the first to say when I "f" up, I don't care.

No one can say which unit is BEST. The first one to say that will be the first one I call a bull shitter because it's all on what YOU want to do. I will however say it works the way it should and gets the job done well, as I am sure the other units do. To each his own, and deleting posts is a bitch move IMO. There wasn't any arguing about any units. I stated my experiences with it because everyone was only stating negativity and then I wished Jeph luck, where is the bickering in that? If I was bickering, I would have told Jeph to "F" off because he ditched it, but that's not how I feel.

[Jeph]

I do like the MPI and no I don't think it's ALL the users fault. There were problems with TM's and SW. I have helped enough people to see that about 99% of the problems have been with the car or install. People just don't like to admit when they are wrong. I will be the first to say when I "f" up, I don't care.

No one can say which unit is BEST. The first one to say that will be the first one I call a bull shitter because it's all on what YOU want to do. I will however say it works the way it should and gets the job done well, as I am sure the other units do. To each his own, and deleting posts is a bitch move IMO. There wasn't any arguing about any units. I stated my experiences with it because everyone was only stating negativity and then I wished Jeph luck, where is the bickering in that? If I was bickering, I would have told Jeph to "F" off because he ditched it, but that's not how I feel.

Haha, I have no hard feelings towards you tim. I know you tried your hardest to get it running right in my car, but i am just done messing with it. I think i'll be really happy with the AEM. To each his own right?

[NSNMotorsports]

Tim, this is really just an honest straightforward question because I really do not know the answer...

Have you used a car (not necessarily a protege) or so forth for any kind of period of time that was running a standalone... Wolf3D, Haltech, AEM, Microtech, EMS, Motech, LinkSystem, etc?

[Titanium-99]

My MPI is coming out this week and Unichip should be here tommarow. I cant wait to have my car running again. Im not going to say that the MPI is crap because honestly the thing works hella great on the right application, but for some reason my car just is not the right application. I has made both Moeed and Apocman's car's both run like a bat out of hell. What pains me is to see it work on thier car's and then we go to tune mine and its buck buck, boom as it back fires from letting some much damn gas out the tail pipe. I think the Unichip will work better for me because I am a busy guy and I dont have all the time in the world to go drive around and waist a tank of gas in 30mins of driving every time it starts bucking again. I like things simple so putting the Unichip in is going to perfect for me since I wont have to mess with it and there really hasnt been and problems or complaints with it. I plan to not run the boost controller it comes with and just run boost off of my
Greddy profecB spec-II and drive daily on map A with the my boost controller set at stock boost. I will have map B for fun time and racing set at 12psi on my boost controller.

[Killer 8]

Sounds like you got it planed out pretty good i wish you luck with the MPI to Uni swap.

[Ken@ProtegeGarage]

I do like the MPI and no I don't think it's ALL the users fault. There were problems with TM's and SW. I have helped enough people to see that about 99% of the problems have been with the car or install. People just don't like to admit when they are wrong. I will be the first to say when I "f" up, I don't care.

No one can say which unit is BEST. The first one to say that will be the first one I call a bull shitter because it's all on what YOU want to do. I will however say it works the way it should and gets the job done well, as I am sure the other units do. To each his own, and deleting posts is a bitch move IMO. There wasn't any arguing about any units. I stated my experiences with it because everyone was only stating negativity and then I wished Jeph luck, where is the bickering in that? If I was bickering, I would have told Jeph to "F" off because he ditched it, but that's not how I feel.

tim, for what it is worth, i have been - of all things mpi i have seen - very impressed with the way you have helped others with the unit. its always nice to see how you step in and show a willingness to help people with thier units and i have to commend you for that positive attitude. many people would simply not take the time.

[Bigg Tim]

Tim, this is really just an honest straightforward question because I really do not know the answer...

Have you used a car (not necessarily a protege) or so forth for any kind of period of time that was running a standalone... Wolf3D, Haltech, AEM, Microtech, EMS, Motech, LinkSystem, etc?

Nope. And I have always said my opinions are biased since I have only used the MPI. I only state what MY experiences are with the MPI and whatever I tell people is from my experience. I have never said I know it all, I don't know crap compared to others. I have seen other systems run on cars and they do seem to run well, how well they run in different climates and conditions, I do not know.

[NSNMotorsports]

okay, that's cool. I was just curious. Because my next question would have been what you liked better etc that you seem to favor the MPI over other options. The differences are more apparent when you work with both/multiples. Both good and bad in each case.

[terbow]

holy crap! if i hear you right that's a lot of work tony!


you bet ur ass it is! i got the connector off and all the pins are diff lengths and bent at 90's etc. oy. but it will be worth it.

[Jeph]

Sigh.... This is a much bigger project than i expected. I still haven't gotten it in. I have to pull the MPI, and rewire my harness like stock. THEN there are 31 wires to use for the AEM...

[BRIAN MP5T]

One at a time and the project seems smaller..

[Jeph]

Heh, then i look at all the other parts piling up in my room...

[Mental Addiction]

Post pictures

[terbow]

just be glad you didnt decide to make a pnp harness jeph.

taking the mpi out is like a 20 min project its not so bad (i took mine out in the rain), but you might be reusing some of the cut ones so dont resolder them all if u need them, check first, it might save u a few mins.

[Titanium-99]

YES!!! The MPI is out and I am in love with my car all over again and thats with out any engine mgmt. The Unichip goes in tommarow and I cant wait its going to rock my pants off! Or at least I hope it does. It is really a good feeling to be able to floor it again and not worry about the car bucking and hesitating at 4k rpm's its also nice to stomp all over cars that come up next to me taunting me and not worrying about embarising myself when I step on it.

[CasopoliS]

YES!!! The MPI is out and I am in love with my car all over again and thats with out any engine mgmt. The Unichip goes in tommarow and I cant wait its going to rock my pants off! Or at least I hope it does. It is really a good feeling to be able to floor it again and not worry about the car bucking and hesitating at 4k rpm's its also nice to stomp all over cars that come up next to me taunting me and not worrying about embarising myself when I step on it.

so stock ECU is better than ECU+MPI? Unichip is great for me:
FMIC, 3" GHL TB, 9psi. I need a WB to confirm AFs but it seems good.

[Bigg Tim]

so stock ECU is better than ECU+MPI? Unichip is great for me:
FMIC, 3" GHL TB, 9psi. I need a WB to confirm AFs but it seems good.

Only when not tuned it is.

[Titanium-99]

Only when not tuned it is.


The MPI is a great unit and awesome engine mgmt. and has done some amazing things with Apocmans car, Moeeds car and others. But it just would not work on my car and I had no issues with my car no cel's I replaced the o2 and all types of other things and still it would run way to rich and buck constantly when you got on it. not to mention my fule cal was set at like -13 and stuff like that where every one elses was at like +5, It just made no sence to me. Honestly I wanted it to work on my car and I really didnt want to take it out of my car and switch to the unichip because it was doing such great things with my friends cars and I was confident that it would do the same for me but my confidence only lasted so long and almost a year was to long. My car was just not liking it and would not allow for a good switch point wich was causing all the bucking not to mention even when it did feel like we were getting a map banged out the car just didnt seem as fast as the others here who had a MPI. I am in no way wanting or trying to bash th MPI because its really a great unit it just didnt work for me and what my post earlier was really about was my relife of having my car running strong be it that it is stock power for the most part but with out any more bucking. And who knows maybe the Unichip wont even work although I hope it does or then I am just screwed because that means I need to replace my ecu, go stand alone or get another freaking car.

[Bigg Tim]

The MPI is a great unit and awesome engine mgmt. and has done some amazing things with Apocmans car, Moeeds car and others. But it just would not work on my car and I had no issues with my car no cel's I replaced the o2 and all types of other things and still it would run way to rich and buck constantly when you got on it. not to mention my fule cal was set at like -13 and stuff like that where every one elses was at like +5, It just made no sence to me. Honestly I wanted it to work on my car and I really didnt want to take it out of my car and switch to the unichip because it was doing such great things with my friends cars and I was confident that it would do the same for me but my confidence only lasted so long and almost a year was to long. My car was just not liking it and would not allow for a good switch point wich was causing all the bucking not to mention even when it did feel like we were getting a map banged out the car just didnt seem as fast as the others here who had a MPI. I am in no way wanting or trying to bash th MPI because its really a great unit it just didnt work for me and what my post earlier was really about was my relife of having my car running strong be it that it is stock power for the most part but with out any more bucking. And who knows maybe the Unichip wont even work although I hope it does or then I am just screwed because that means I need to replace my ecu, go stand alone or get another freaking car.

Not trying to bash ya dude, I understand.

[Titanium-99]

Cool Cool!

[t3ase]

Bump any new developments/opinions/etc?

[Jeph]

It should be done by this weekend, i'll update then