Spark Timing Tuning

[Peepsalot]

I'm thinking about getting a J&S Safeguard to control timing for my MSP. I understand that it is only capable of retarding timing.

Under what circumstances would you advance your timing on a turbocharged engine? Would having control over spark advance be much benefit at all?

[Peepsalot]

I'm thinking about getting a J&S Safeguard to control timing for my MSP. I understand that it is only capable of retarding timing.

Under what circumstances would you advance your timing on a turbocharged engine? Would having control over spark advance be much benefit at all?

[pdhaudio83]

A J&S Safeguard is only really useful unless YOU are controlling your timing.

Under many circumstances YOU would benefit from advance timing, especially if you are running the stock ECU. Control over spark- if done right, controling spark could give you 20whp in some circumstances. Getting the timing perfectly right is tricky, and rather than Mazda tuning every ECU for its climate, loads the same map on all which is a VERY conservative map (thus I estimate 20whp gain under good circumstances)

A J&S is useless unless you are advancing your timing over stock (so if you are using a stock ECU, a J&S is worthless, unless you are doing something like running 87 octane fuel that may make you pre ignite)

[pdhaudio83]

A J&S Safeguard is only really useful unless YOU are controlling your timing.

Under many circumstances YOU would benefit from advance timing, especially if you are running the stock ECU. Control over spark- if done right, controling spark could give you 20whp in some circumstances. Getting the timing perfectly right is tricky, and rather than Mazda tuning every ECU for its climate, loads the same map on all which is a VERY conservative map (thus I estimate 20whp gain under good circumstances)

A J&S is useless unless you are advancing your timing over stock (so if you are using a stock ECU, a J&S is worthless, unless you are doing something like running 87 octane fuel that may make you pre ignite)

[Peepsalot]

Well, I was under the impression that people are usually pulling(retarding) timing under increased boost. The more you boost it, the more you should pull the stock timing back a bit, since it wasn't designed for that much boost.

[Peepsalot]

Well, I was under the impression that people are usually pulling(retarding) timing under increased boost. The more you boost it, the more you should pull the stock timing back a bit, since it wasn't designed for that much boost.

[Dexter]

I think you want to be able to advance spark timing as much as you can without detonating or creating too hot cylinder temps. I could be wrong.

[Dexter]

I think you want to be able to advance spark timing as much as you can without detonating or creating too hot cylinder temps. I could be wrong.

[pdhaudio83]

Dex is exactly right.

the J&S only reduces timing once it's heard detonation, and if that detonation is bad enough, bye bye.

I maybe wrong, but you want something that can control spark better than the J&S- like an EMS

[pdhaudio83]

Dex is exactly right.

the J&S only reduces timing once it's heard detonation, and if that detonation is bad enough, bye bye.

I maybe wrong, but you want something that can control spark better than the J&S- like an EMS

[Dexter]

Doesn't the J&S have incorporate an algorithm to 'predict' detonation?

[Dexter]

Doesn't the J&S have incorporate an algorithm to 'predict' detonation?

[t3ase]

It may or may not but even if it does, it's a preventative measure. It's doing nothing to CONTROL spark, it's simply pulling it back temporarily when it happens or possibly when it "thinks" it'll happen.

We all know timing needs to be as aggresive as physically possible for the most power, without being overly aggressive given conditions, which causes detonation.

Now, the stock MSP ECU already has a fairly lax timing scheme, since it was produced for the masses. Then again, if your stock ECU was reflashed, then you have advanced timing to deal with, and depending on driving methods and boost level, then the J&S may be ideal.

Either that or find someone with a stock ECU to swap with as I did so you start out with slightly more retarded spark than the flashed version.

At least that's my understanding of it. Correct it if wrong.

[t3ase]

It may or may not but even if it does, it's a preventative measure. It's doing nothing to CONTROL spark, it's simply pulling it back temporarily when it happens or possibly when it "thinks" it'll happen.

We all know timing needs to be as aggresive as physically possible for the most power, without being overly aggressive given conditions, which causes detonation.

Now, the stock MSP ECU already has a fairly lax timing scheme, since it was produced for the masses. Then again, if your stock ECU was reflashed, then you have advanced timing to deal with, and depending on driving methods and boost level, then the J&S may be ideal.

Either that or find someone with a stock ECU to swap with as I did so you start out with slightly more retarded spark than the flashed version.

At least that's my understanding of it. Correct it if wrong.

[Dexter]

I think the only point in getting a J&S is if you have EMS to play with, so that the J&S will indicate your limits. Otherwise I do not see much of a point.

(btw I am still on stock unflashed ECU. woo.)

[Dexter]

I think the only point in getting a J&S is if you have EMS to play with, so that the J&S will indicate your limits. Otherwise I do not see much of a point.

(btw I am still on stock unflashed ECU. woo.)

[pdhaudio83]

exactly what dex said.

[pdhaudio83]

exactly what dex said.

[Peepsalot]

Well, my ECU came flashed when I got the car. Has anyone here actually tuned a spark timing map themselves? Are you saying there is not need to retard past the stock timing at any point on the map?

[Peepsalot]

Well, my ECU came flashed when I got the car. Has anyone here actually tuned a spark timing map themselves? Are you saying there is not need to retard past the stock timing at any point on the map?

[t3ase]

You'd *HAVE* to retard, well, at least for higher levels. I know I should have had a heavy retard with the levels I was running and the shitty ass fuel out here.

[t3ase]

You'd *HAVE* to retard, well, at least for higher levels. I know I should have had a heavy retard with the levels I was running and the shitty ass fuel out here.

[pdhaudio83]

its stock. its as conservative as possible- meaning there is no situation that would require any more timing taken out.

as long as your boost remains stock, you're fine.

[pdhaudio83]

its stock. its as conservative as possible- meaning there is no situation that would require any more timing taken out.

as long as your boost remains stock, you're fine.

[Peepsalot]

its stock. its as conservative as possible- meaning there is no situation that would require any more timing taken out.

as long as your boost remains stock, you're fine.
OK, I guess there was a miscommunication here, I do not intend to keep it at stock boost. I'm thinking around 10psi. Maybe even 12 if I am confident in the tune.

[Peepsalot]

its stock. its as conservative as possible- meaning there is no situation that would require any more timing taken out.

as long as your boost remains stock, you're fine.
OK, I guess there was a miscommunication here, I do not intend to keep it at stock boost. I'm thinking around 10psi. Maybe even 12 if I am confident in the tune.

[t3ase]

its stock. its as conservative as possible- meaning there is no situation that would require any more timing taken out.

as long as your boost remains stock, you're fine.
OK, I guess there was a miscommunication here, I do not intend to keep it at stock boost. I'm thinking around 10psi. Maybe even 12 if I am confident in the tune.
The situation. (shady)

[t3ase]

its stock. its as conservative as possible- meaning there is no situation that would require any more timing taken out.

as long as your boost remains stock, you're fine.
OK, I guess there was a miscommunication here, I do not intend to keep it at stock boost. I'm thinking around 10psi. Maybe even 12 if I am confident in the tune.
The situation. (shady)

[NSNMotorsports]

Man where to even start with this thread!!! LOL...

The JandS is adaptive and adjust sensitivity etc as it is running... You need to set the general threshold but it takes care of the rest...

yes it has to "hear" detonation to pull timing, but I can tell you from experience running with amplified noise canceling headphones and other things that the JandS picks up detonation that is so minor that you can't hear it even aided... so it is not the type of detonation that will damage a motor... but that detonation can creep up to the audible levels if left unchecked... high performance motors DO detonate to a small extent... it's really just the flame front smacking into surfaces when it shouldn't... more of a vibration than a sound.. audible loud pinging is typically due to a much more catastrophic level of the high pressure waves occuring...

The JandS is hugely useful for both a non tmiing controlled car and for one that is timign controlled... if you are running boost with a stock ECU and not timing control the timign will be more advanced than you'd typically want/need for the boost levels, so that is where the JandS takes over and protects the motor since you can't pull the timing as a general rule.

With a car that HAS an EMS for timing, think of the JandS as a wideband... I can go out with the car and a conservative timing set and keep upping the timing until the JandS starts indicating. Then I back it off a couple degrees and voila, my timing is set at the optimal levels worry free and completely safe and with NEVER creating an audible ping to damage the motor... so it is a HUGE advantage... none of you really flinched at paying over 350 bucks for a wideband, so why not pay 500 for a JandS and have protection if you lose a fan or a radiator problem etc...

[NSNMotorsports]

Man where to even start with this thread!!! LOL...

The JandS is adaptive and adjust sensitivity etc as it is running... You need to set the general threshold but it takes care of the rest...

yes it has to "hear" detonation to pull timing, but I can tell you from experience running with amplified noise canceling headphones and other things that the JandS picks up detonation that is so minor that you can't hear it even aided... so it is not the type of detonation that will damage a motor... but that detonation can creep up to the audible levels if left unchecked... high performance motors DO detonate to a small extent... it's really just the flame front smacking into surfaces when it shouldn't... more of a vibration than a sound.. audible loud pinging is typically due to a much more catastrophic level of the high pressure waves occuring...

The JandS is hugely useful for both a non tmiing controlled car and for one that is timign controlled... if you are running boost with a stock ECU and not timing control the timign will be more advanced than you'd typically want/need for the boost levels, so that is where the JandS takes over and protects the motor since you can't pull the timing as a general rule.

With a car that HAS an EMS for timing, think of the JandS as a wideband... I can go out with the car and a conservative timing set and keep upping the timing until the JandS starts indicating. Then I back it off a couple degrees and voila, my timing is set at the optimal levels worry free and completely safe and with NEVER creating an audible ping to damage the motor... so it is a HUGE advantage... none of you really flinched at paying over 350 bucks for a wideband, so why not pay 500 for a JandS and have protection if you lose a fan or a radiator problem etc...

[NSNMotorsports]

You'd *HAVE* to retard, well, at least for higher levels. I know I should have had a heavy retard with the levels I was running and the shitty ass fuel out here.

Keep in mind too, that the stock ECU will pull out a bunch of timing if it hears any knocking... so you get "saved" temporarily there, but it is nowhere as sophisticated and you'll lose a lot of power... and we've seen plenty of motors detonate any way and go bye-bye as is without knock prevention.

[NSNMotorsports]

You'd *HAVE* to retard, well, at least for higher levels. I know I should have had a heavy retard with the levels I was running and the shitty ass fuel out here.

Keep in mind too, that the stock ECU will pull out a bunch of timing if it hears any knocking... so you get "saved" temporarily there, but it is nowhere as sophisticated and you'll lose a lot of power... and we've seen plenty of motors detonate any way and go bye-bye as is without knock prevention.

[NSNMotorsports]

I have a little more time so I wanted to add to my previous posts...

The J&S also only affects individual cylinders. If one cylinder has a hot spot whether it be from bad machining, or a carbon buildup, that cylinder will detonate before others will, thus you'll need to pull timing from one cylinder before another. Most EMS's as well as almost all stock knock systems pull all 4 cylinders back which means you lose a lot of power when that occurs. Additionally, most systems use a step and wait approach which means if a noise threshold or knock count threshold is exceeded a large batch of timing is pulled... 10 or 20 degrees... that is then held for a period of time then all added back in. If all is well it continues on with no issue.. if adding it back in knocks the process starts over... if that batch of timing pulled is not enough even more is pulled and the process is similar. The JandS on the other hand pulls 2 or 4 degrees (you set which) when it detects the low level detonation. It listens in a fixed window where detonation is most likely to occur, and if it doesn't hear the detonation it adds half the timing back in, listens again, and adds it back if it is okay... if it hears detonation again though on either case it pulls another 2 or 4 degrees out... basically a two steps backward one step forward approach.. This is done on each individual cylinder (even on wasted spark) and is done in real time. And again, as I said I've tried amplified listening devices and numerous other things and the J&S is way ahead of the human ear and the stock ECU. One way I can prove this is I can take you out and do a run where the JandS will not light up... I can add in a few degrees of timing and you'll see it light up almost exactly the number of degrees I added. I pull that timing back out, and it is content again. I've also seen it work it's magic on cars with the stock ECU that we had an MPI on... we upped boost and started leaning the car out and started getting detonation in certain regions based on the indicators from the JandS, so we pulled out a couple of degrees of timing there, and the lights didn't come on again... put the timing back, and there it was again... so we have proven it etc without any issue.

So the unit is useful regardless of what setup you have, and certainly helps protect your investment... look at blkzoomzoom's car.... popped on the dyno with only 500 miles on it when it was tuned for detonation by "ear". Detonation was so bad they took out valve reliefs on all 4 cylinders. An entire motor lost basically because of something that the J&S would have prevented.

Hope that clears it up!

[NSNMotorsports]

I have a little more time so I wanted to add to my previous posts...

The J&S also only affects individual cylinders. If one cylinder has a hot spot whether it be from bad machining, or a carbon buildup, that cylinder will detonate before others will, thus you'll need to pull timing from one cylinder before another. Most EMS's as well as almost all stock knock systems pull all 4 cylinders back which means you lose a lot of power when that occurs. Additionally, most systems use a step and wait approach which means if a noise threshold or knock count threshold is exceeded a large batch of timing is pulled... 10 or 20 degrees... that is then held for a period of time then all added back in. If all is well it continues on with no issue.. if adding it back in knocks the process starts over... if that batch of timing pulled is not enough even more is pulled and the process is similar. The JandS on the other hand pulls 2 or 4 degrees (you set which) when it detects the low level detonation. It listens in a fixed window where detonation is most likely to occur, and if it doesn't hear the detonation it adds half the timing back in, listens again, and adds it back if it is okay... if it hears detonation again though on either case it pulls another 2 or 4 degrees out... basically a two steps backward one step forward approach.. This is done on each individual cylinder (even on wasted spark) and is done in real time. And again, as I said I've tried amplified listening devices and numerous other things and the J&S is way ahead of the human ear and the stock ECU. One way I can prove this is I can take you out and do a run where the JandS will not light up... I can add in a few degrees of timing and you'll see it light up almost exactly the number of degrees I added. I pull that timing back out, and it is content again. I've also seen it work it's magic on cars with the stock ECU that we had an MPI on... we upped boost and started leaning the car out and started getting detonation in certain regions based on the indicators from the JandS, so we pulled out a couple of degrees of timing there, and the lights didn't come on again... put the timing back, and there it was again... so we have proven it etc without any issue.

So the unit is useful regardless of what setup you have, and certainly helps protect your investment... look at blkzoomzoom's car.... popped on the dyno with only 500 miles on it when it was tuned for detonation by "ear". Detonation was so bad they took out valve reliefs on all 4 cylinders. An entire motor lost basically because of something that the J&S would have prevented.

Hope that clears it up!

[Peepsalot]

That helps some. But my main question is still unanswered. Let me try to rephrase it. Say you have a map of timing by RPM and boost. Assuming it is tuned perfectly to maximize power without detonating(max boost of 10 or 12psi), roughly what parts of the map are going to have timing advanced more than stock, and what parts would be retarded below stock timing.
For example, if I would be retarding timing from 3000-7000RPM at WOT, or whenver I'm in full boost, then I would say the ability to advance timing would not be worth it to me. I'm just trying to get an idea of that sort of thing, how much am I missing out from having no timing advance with increased boost.

[NSNMotorsports]

well it isn't known really for sure how what the stock timing curve is. From my experience with the JandS on a stock ECU with an MPI (mp3 ecu), we had to start pulling timing at around 3500 rpm's up to about 5500 rpm's as soon as we started getting into the 6 psi ore more range. Also, I did find though that adding timing for cruising, and adding timing in the high rpm range made some significant improvements in feel of the car and response.

[Bigg Tim]

Yeah, the J&S is a very usefulltool. If you don't want to get an EMS yet, you can use it for now and use the boost retard feature to retard x amount of boost per psi. That way at least you have some type of "control" over the timing. That thing has saved my ass and more then makes up for the small price IMO!

[JDM Sam]

pull timing from 5000 rpm up on a msp.
if you have a FMIC the flashed ecu is fine in the midrange but you can actually add some timing in from 3000 to 4500.

[Bigg Tim]

Does anyone in the DFW area have a timing map made with the J&S? If so, they should post what they have because on a regular protege, you need mid-range retard. So just saying pull it up top isn't accurate. The psi you run has a lot to do with it also.

[NSNMotorsports]

Yeah... pulling timing up top is usually NOT what you need to do.. I run ridiculous timing up top and have my midrange cut by almost 10 degrees compared to redline to get the detonation quelled.

For example, at about 12 psi of boost my midrange timing drops to about 20 degrees but by redline I'm up to about 31 degrees IN boost.

[JDM Sam]

You guys dont have msps. The timing is substantially different. There's no way you can run that high timing unless you have a FMIC either.
The midrange timing is weak hence the flash modified the midrange timing vs the original pcm calibration. The flashed version doesn't have that much in the midrange either and you can add more if you have a fmic.

[Bigg Tim]

All the more reason to have a J&S tuned timing map up for the MSP peeps so they know where to pull what.

Steve--does your bro still have an MSP?? No J&S for him yet? What the hell kind of salesman are you?:D

[NSNMotorsports]

Jeremy - Little Beavis, has a JandS and MPI in his MP3 that has an MSP full turbo kit and block in it (built block though). The other brother Chris - Coneh8r sold his MSP to a guy named Shaun (Tallrd on the forums)...