Waxes

[t3ase]

In an effort to start threads and get the board going a bit, here's another thread from teh t3ase.

Do higher priced waxes such as Zaino Bros and those found on Autopia warrant such? Am I better off buying more NXT for the price of one Zainos kit?

Keep in mind, the car's orange so the depth wont ever be like a black car, but I still want some depth and more importantly I want the pearlescent to be brought out more.

[t3ase]

In an effort to start threads and get the board going a bit, here's another thread from teh t3ase.

Do higher priced waxes such as Zaino Bros and those found on Autopia warrant such? Am I better off buying more NXT for the price of one Zainos kit?

Keep in mind, the car's orange so the depth wont ever be like a black car, but I still want some depth and more importantly I want the pearlescent to be brought out more.

[BRIAN MP5T]

http://www.phatperformanceparts.com/merchant2/graphics/00000002/05500.jpg

Seriously. I love this shit!

[BRIAN MP5T]

http://www.phatperformanceparts.com/merchant2/graphics/00000002/05500.jpg

Seriously. I love this shit!

[2Shiny]

Higher priced waxes are sometimes justified. Keep in mind though, the step that makes a car look great is the polishing step. If you've got oxidized paint, waxing/sealing over that is not going to help. A pure wax will only seal in the paint in the condition that it's already in.
This is why wax manufacturers add cleaning agents to their waxes. Most consumers want to buy one product that does everything. This is good for most people, but for the people that want the BEST results, you're better off buying products that are specific toward one step. A product that does everything is just a compromise between all the steps. Rather than getting excellent results on one step, you get mediocre results on multiple steps. That doesn't put you ahead.

So that said, the wax or sealant isn't the most important part, if you're looking for the best look. The wax/sealant is meant to seal in the paint, to PRESERVE it in the condition that it's in. It is a protection step, not a restoration step. Sealants and waxes will often add a bit of wetness to the paint, and will repel water/dirt, so the paint will stay cleaner, longer. Once it does get dirty, the dirt is loosely attached, so it will wash off easily. On an unwaxed surface, the dirt will stick too well, and it will be difficult to wash off. If you have to scrub the dirt off, count on lots of scratches/swirls to be discovered afterward.

t3 - pearls and metallic flake are muted when there is oxidation or swirls in the top layer of paint. If the light can't get to these flakes or pearls, it can't reflect off of them. Thus, you will not see them. In order to bring out pearls and metallic flakes, you must get the clearcoat as perfectly transparent as possible. This is what you need a polisher like the Porter Cable 7424 polisher for.

So your question...are higher priced waxes worth it? IMO, waxes like Pinnacle Souveran ($60/8oz) are too expensive to be justified. They look great, yes. But other waxes like Poorboy's Nattys or Nattys Blue look extremely close, and cost a comparitively small amount of $15/8oz. There are waxes like Pinnacle Paste Glaz that cost $35/8oz, and I bought 4 jars. :) Why? Because the ease of use and the smell is just terrific. I'd dread waxing my car too if I were using a cheap wax that smelled horrible and was a total PITA to use. But I enjoy it very much, because the majority of the products I use, smell great and resemble melted butter when applying/removing. That's why I wax my car every few weeks, and I can apply/remove in 30 minutes.

[2Shiny]

Higher priced waxes are sometimes justified. Keep in mind though, the step that makes a car look great is the polishing step. If you've got oxidized paint, waxing/sealing over that is not going to help. A pure wax will only seal in the paint in the condition that it's already in.
This is why wax manufacturers add cleaning agents to their waxes. Most consumers want to buy one product that does everything. This is good for most people, but for the people that want the BEST results, you're better off buying products that are specific toward one step. A product that does everything is just a compromise between all the steps. Rather than getting excellent results on one step, you get mediocre results on multiple steps. That doesn't put you ahead.

So that said, the wax or sealant isn't the most important part, if you're looking for the best look. The wax/sealant is meant to seal in the paint, to PRESERVE it in the condition that it's in. It is a protection step, not a restoration step. Sealants and waxes will often add a bit of wetness to the paint, and will repel water/dirt, so the paint will stay cleaner, longer. Once it does get dirty, the dirt is loosely attached, so it will wash off easily. On an unwaxed surface, the dirt will stick too well, and it will be difficult to wash off. If you have to scrub the dirt off, count on lots of scratches/swirls to be discovered afterward.

t3 - pearls and metallic flake are muted when there is oxidation or swirls in the top layer of paint. If the light can't get to these flakes or pearls, it can't reflect off of them. Thus, you will not see them. In order to bring out pearls and metallic flakes, you must get the clearcoat as perfectly transparent as possible. This is what you need a polisher like the Porter Cable 7424 polisher for.

So your question...are higher priced waxes worth it? IMO, waxes like Pinnacle Souveran ($60/8oz) are too expensive to be justified. They look great, yes. But other waxes like Poorboy's Nattys or Nattys Blue look extremely close, and cost a comparitively small amount of $15/8oz. There are waxes like Pinnacle Paste Glaz that cost $35/8oz, and I bought 4 jars. :) Why? Because the ease of use and the smell is just terrific. I'd dread waxing my car too if I were using a cheap wax that smelled horrible and was a total PITA to use. But I enjoy it very much, because the majority of the products I use, smell great and resemble melted butter when applying/removing. That's why I wax my car every few weeks, and I can apply/remove in 30 minutes.

[2Shiny]

Brian - the Mothers Carnauba Cleaner Wax is one of the best cleaner waxes IMO. The problem with only using cleaner waxes though, is that they compromise each step. And if you go to reapply it, the cleaners are working mostly to remove the old wax, rather than clean the paint further. To get the best results, you need a strong dedicated paint cleaner like Klasse All-In-One.

[2Shiny]

Brian - the Mothers Carnauba Cleaner Wax is one of the best cleaner waxes IMO. The problem with only using cleaner waxes though, is that they compromise each step. And if you go to reapply it, the cleaners are working mostly to remove the old wax, rather than clean the paint further. To get the best results, you need a strong dedicated paint cleaner like Klasse All-In-One.

[2Shiny]

This is my paste wax collection:

http://autopia.org/gallery/data/500/Wax.jpg

Pinnacle Paste Glaz: ($35/8oz, sale $25/8oz)
A breeze to use, smells great, adds nice wetness to the finish. Durability is not so great. Discontinued early in 2005.

Poorboy's Nattys Paste Wax:($15/8oz)
Smells great, adds nice wetness, slightly more difficult than Paste Glaz, but still quite easy to use. Durability slightly better than Paste Glaz.

Poorboy's Nattys Blue Paste Wax:($15/8oz)
Smells like gumballs, adds nice wetness. Supposedly designed for darker colors, and leaves regular Nattys for light colors. But both have worked great on lights and darks in my experience. Durability is about equal to Nattys.

Meguiars #16 Professional Paste Wax: ($15/11oz)
Smells like crayons (I like it), goes on relatively easy but can't compare to PG's ease of use. Very durable, often lasting over 3 months with one coat. Takes revenge on your arm if you apply it too thick. Discontinued in early 2005.

S100 Paste Wax: ($15/8oz)
Identical to P21s Paste Wax, which costs ~$32/8oz. S100 is available at Harley-Davidson stores and costs $15/8oz. Goes on and comes off very easy. Rivals PG's ease of use. Smells neutral. Durability is lacking.

[2Shiny]

This is my paste wax collection:

http://autopia.org/gallery/data/500/Wax.jpg

Pinnacle Paste Glaz: ($35/8oz, sale $25/8oz)
A breeze to use, smells great, adds nice wetness to the finish. Durability is not so great. Discontinued early in 2005.

Poorboy's Nattys Paste Wax:($15/8oz)
Smells great, adds nice wetness, slightly more difficult than Paste Glaz, but still quite easy to use. Durability slightly better than Paste Glaz.

Poorboy's Nattys Blue Paste Wax:($15/8oz)
Smells like gumballs, adds nice wetness. Supposedly designed for darker colors, and leaves regular Nattys for light colors. But both have worked great on lights and darks in my experience. Durability is about equal to Nattys.

Meguiars #16 Professional Paste Wax: ($15/11oz)
Smells like crayons (I like it), goes on relatively easy but can't compare to PG's ease of use. Very durable, often lasting over 3 months with one coat. Takes revenge on your arm if you apply it too thick. Discontinued in early 2005.

S100 Paste Wax: ($15/8oz)
Identical to P21s Paste Wax, which costs ~$32/8oz. S100 is available at Harley-Davidson stores and costs $15/8oz. Goes on and comes off very easy. Rivals PG's ease of use. Smells neutral. Durability is lacking.

[t3ase]

So to bring out the flake of the paint, tell me what you'd buy assuming I had nothing.

[t3ase]

So to bring out the flake of the paint, tell me what you'd buy assuming I had nothing.

[2Shiny]

With the products that I have/use, I'd pull out the Poorboy's SSRs (polishes) to remove any oxidation and swirls. There are several different ones:
SSR1 - very light polishing
SSR2 - light/medium swirls
SSR2.5 - medium/medium-heavy swirls
SSR3 - Severe swirls/scratches

So I'd choose one of the above depending on your level of swirling. If 2.5 or 3 was necessary, I may need to follow up with SSR2 or SSR1.

To apply them, a PC is necessary IMO. We'll assume you have light swirls, so I'd use a Propel green pad with SSR2. Buff off polish with a MF towel. Then check for swirls...if all are gone, use Klasse AIO to clean the paint further, making sure the surface is as clean and transparent as possible. Then I'd use either Wolfgang Deep Gloss sealant or FourStar Ultimate Paint Protection. Those are both polymer sealants that offer excellent optical clarity. Waxes are less optically perfect, so they sometimes tend to mute the flakes a bit. If you're looking for the most flakes/pearls, you'll probably want to just keep applying the WG or FourStar UPP anytime you feel inclined, rather than applying a wax.

Klasse AIO:
http://www.autopia-carcare.com/kus-kla-10.html

Propel pads:
http://www.prestostore.com/cgi-bin/store.pl?ref=exceldetail&ct=29307

MF towels (the blue or yellow Supremes are my favorite. I have 43 of them :) )
http://www.prestostore.com/cgi-bin/store.pl?ref=exceldetail&ct=29279

FourStar UPP:
http://www.prestostore.com/cgi-bin/store.pl?ref=exceldetail&ct=37056&pd=97957&recview=11

Poorboy's SSRs:
http://www.prestostore.com/cgi-bin/store.pl?ref=exceldetail&ct=44434

Wolfgang sealant:
http://www.autogeek.net/wg5500.html

One thing I might add...
If you're planning on removing swirls from your paint, the most important thing to consider afterward is having a proper washing method to keep the swirls from coming back. Getting a high quality sheepskin wash mitt and a waffle weave drying towel (or two) will make washing a breeze, and keep it safe for your paint as well. You want to use the least pressure possible to wash the dirt off. Using a thick sheepskin mitt full of soapy water will gently pull the dirt off, and keep it lubricated so that it can't scratch the paint.

Sheepskin mitt:
http://www.prestostore.com/cgi-bin/store.pl?ref=exceldetail&ct=30057&pd=138546

Waffle weave MF drying towel:
http://www.prestostore.com/cgi-bin/store.pl?ref=exceldetail&ct=29280&pd=133820

[2Shiny]

With the products that I have/use, I'd pull out the Poorboy's SSRs (polishes) to remove any oxidation and swirls. There are several different ones:
SSR1 - very light polishing
SSR2 - light/medium swirls
SSR2.5 - medium/medium-heavy swirls
SSR3 - Severe swirls/scratches

So I'd choose one of the above depending on your level of swirling. If 2.5 or 3 was necessary, I may need to follow up with SSR2 or SSR1.

To apply them, a PC is necessary IMO. We'll assume you have light swirls, so I'd use a Propel green pad with SSR2. Buff off polish with a MF towel. Then check for swirls...if all are gone, use Klasse AIO to clean the paint further, making sure the surface is as clean and transparent as possible. Then I'd use either Wolfgang Deep Gloss sealant or FourStar Ultimate Paint Protection. Those are both polymer sealants that offer excellent optical clarity. Waxes are less optically perfect, so they sometimes tend to mute the flakes a bit. If you're looking for the most flakes/pearls, you'll probably want to just keep applying the WG or FourStar UPP anytime you feel inclined, rather than applying a wax.

Klasse AIO:
http://www.autopia-carcare.com/kus-kla-10.html

Propel pads:
http://www.prestostore.com/cgi-bin/store.pl?ref=exceldetail&ct=29307

MF towels (the blue or yellow Supremes are my favorite. I have 43 of them :) )
http://www.prestostore.com/cgi-bin/store.pl?ref=exceldetail&ct=29279

FourStar UPP:
http://www.prestostore.com/cgi-bin/store.pl?ref=exceldetail&ct=37056&pd=97957&recview=11

Poorboy's SSRs:
http://www.prestostore.com/cgi-bin/store.pl?ref=exceldetail&ct=44434

Wolfgang sealant:
http://www.autogeek.net/wg5500.html

One thing I might add...
If you're planning on removing swirls from your paint, the most important thing to consider afterward is having a proper washing method to keep the swirls from coming back. Getting a high quality sheepskin wash mitt and a waffle weave drying towel (or two) will make washing a breeze, and keep it safe for your paint as well. You want to use the least pressure possible to wash the dirt off. Using a thick sheepskin mitt full of soapy water will gently pull the dirt off, and keep it lubricated so that it can't scratch the paint.

Sheepskin mitt:
http://www.prestostore.com/cgi-bin/store.pl?ref=exceldetail&ct=30057&pd=138546

Waffle weave MF drying towel:
http://www.prestostore.com/cgi-bin/store.pl?ref=exceldetail&ct=29280&pd=133820

[t3ase]

now, I've read that "curing" needs to happen between layers. is this true when it comes to polishes and such? how long should what you've said above take?

[t3ase]

now, I've read that "curing" needs to happen between layers. is this true when it comes to polishes and such? how long should what you've said above take?

[2Shiny]

Polishes do not need to cure. Most polishes leave nothing behind. They leave only a clean surface ready to be protected by another product. The process of curing is time alloted for the sealant's molecules to "cross-link". IOW, the durability is best if the sealant is allowed to set up properly before adding another product on top.

Don't confuse it with the curing process of new paint, which is where the gases in the new paint need to escape. The usual recommended period before waxing/sealing new paint is at least 30 days. You don't want to seal the paint and prevent it from outgassing.

[2Shiny]

Polishes do not need to cure. Most polishes leave nothing behind. They leave only a clean surface ready to be protected by another product. The process of curing is time alloted for the sealant's molecules to "cross-link". IOW, the durability is best if the sealant is allowed to set up properly before adding another product on top.

Don't confuse it with the curing process of new paint, which is where the gases in the new paint need to escape. The usual recommended period before waxing/sealing new paint is at least 30 days. You don't want to seal the paint and prevent it from outgassing.

[BRIAN MP5T]

Brian - the Mothers Carnauba Cleaner Wax is one of the best cleaner waxes IMO. The problem with only using cleaner waxes though, is that they compromise each step. And if you go to reapply it, the cleaners are working mostly to remove the old wax, rather than clean the paint further. To get the best results, you need a strong dedicated paint cleaner like Klasse All-In-One.

Claybar then I use this and then the Carnuba as a sealant. Weekly, Serious.

[BRIAN MP5T]

Brian - the Mothers Carnauba Cleaner Wax is one of the best cleaner waxes IMO. The problem with only using cleaner waxes though, is that they compromise each step. And if you go to reapply it, the cleaners are working mostly to remove the old wax, rather than clean the paint further. To get the best results, you need a strong dedicated paint cleaner like Klasse All-In-One.

Claybar then I use this and then the Carnuba as a sealant. Weekly, Serious.

[2Shiny]

Even in the winter?

[2Shiny]

Even in the winter?

[BRIAN MP5T]

Even in the winter?

The Car is never driven in the winter. EVER.

http://www.msprotege.com/members/Brian%20MP5T/Rebuild%202.jpg

[BRIAN MP5T]

Even in the winter?

The Car is never driven in the winter. EVER.

http://www.msprotege.com/members/Brian%20MP5T/Rebuild%202.jpg

[2Shiny]

But the sun is still beating on it. :) You should apply a sealant to it to keep the paint protected through the winter.

[2Shiny]

But the sun is still beating on it. :) You should apply a sealant to it to keep the paint protected through the winter.

[BRIAN MP5T]

But the sun is still beating on it. :) You should apply a sealant to it to keep the paint protected through the winter.


Car Cover...

[BRIAN MP5T]

But the sun is still beating on it. :) You should apply a sealant to it to keep the paint protected through the winter.


Car Cover...

[KzA]

damn...2Shiney if your ever on the east coast..let me know..Just might hire you for a personal detailing lesson, since my skills lack greatly.

[KzA]

damn...2Shiney if your ever on the east coast..let me know..Just might hire you for a personal detailing lesson, since my skills lack greatly.

[2Shiny]

I'd like to go out there sometime, but it probably won't happen anytime soon. Unless maybe we organize a huge meet for Midwest/East Coast members.

[2Shiny]

I'd like to go out there sometime, but it probably won't happen anytime soon. Unless maybe we organize a huge meet for Midwest/East Coast members.

[t3ase]

Polishes do not need to cure. Most polishes leave nothing behind. They leave only a clean surface ready to be protected by another product. The process of curing is time alloted for the sealant's molecules to "cross-link". IOW, the durability is best if the sealant is allowed to set up properly before adding another product on top.

Don't confuse it with the curing process of new paint, which is where the gases in the new paint need to escape. The usual recommended period before waxing/sealing new paint is at least 30 days. You don't want to seal the paint and prevent it from outgassing.
What about waxes? They do need to cure, right?

[vindication]

so what is your stand on the Zaino polishes? I know they make the car look great, but do they actually clean and protect as good as it looks?

[2Shiny]

Waxes don't cure...they merely dry out. All the solvents in the wax will evaporate, leaving the dry wax coating on the surface.
Polymers are said to need time to "cross-link", and properly bond to the surface.
But often waxes do contain polymers or other protectants, so it's possible that while the carnauba wax may not need to cure, some other ingredient does.

Zaino only recently came out with Z-PC, which is the only product in the line that has any cleaning/polishing abilities. Even then, the abilities are slight. That's why I don't like the brand much. Most people don't have perfect paint, so they need to remove some swirls or oxidation in order to really make their paint look great.
Furthermore, Zaino calls its sealants "Show Car Polish", which is rediculous, because they have no polishing ability. A polish is a product that is abrasive, that can remove surface defects.
I also don't like the fact that Zaino advises against using any other brand's products with the Zaino products. Most brands will recommend the use of their paint cleaner with their clay, their wax, and their QD, etc..., but they won't say straight out that no other brand's products will work with our system.

[anarchistchiken]

What kind of Propel pads would you recomend? And this may be a newbish question, but what kind of machine do you need to use the pads?

[2Shiny]

I use all of the Propel pads except the gray. Those are for applying waxes/sealants, and I prefer to do that by hand. There's just something so satisfying about gliding the applicator over the perfectly smooth paint, and wiping off that wax/sealant to reveal the finished product of all your hard work.

They are made for use with the Porter-Cable 7424 or 7336. You can also use them with a rotary polisher though.