Struts....

[JC-MP5]

Could the reason my car rides at lowered height in the rear be because the rear struts are old/worn? The fronts are brand new and ride at monster truck height.

I want to lower the car but it's just so damned confusing.

The car also seems to change ride height from day to day. Some days it will look high, the one day it will look stock and the next it will look lowered with coilovers.

I dont get it.

[mzdalvr]

It could be. Springs don't usually degrade or wear out so it might be your struts. To test this push down the rear at each corner and it shouldn't be too easy. The car should bounce back up without going back down again. Also when your driving they shouldn't make noise like a rattle or sounds sloppy at all.

If you want to lower the car with springs you should probably replace the struts if they have many miles on the car.

[JC-MP5]

I want to get illuminas with tein s-techs. Anyone got pics of a car with that setup? or at least those springs? I want the car to be raked to. with the fron lower than the back. And all the kits lowr it more in the back. :(

I cant afford to get two sets and mis-match the springs either....

[k-lea]

I don't think mis-matching would be a good idea anyways. It'd just be, I derno, weird. I've never heard of mis-matching springs.

[k-lea]

http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=121412
http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=121411

[k-lea]

http://www.dohcresearch.com/pastfeatures/bg/chris_jarrett.jpg

[k-lea]

The Blue P5 has skunks.

The black S-Techs and the rear is higher.

[JC-MP5]

See the black is the way I want it. I want the rear to have some gap but the fron to have none. that makes me feel better. lol Thanks :)

[k-lea]

No problem. :)

[NCZ13]

you wouldnt want to mix springs, because you dont want different spring rates, mixing progressive with linear, i think you would have pretty sketchy handling if you did that.

thats why i got eibachs, i didnt want to worry about scraping, but i also wanted a pretty clean look. illuminas and s techs will give you a bit more drop then what i have.

[k-lea]

I rocked Eibachs on my first Miata, the ride was nothing compared to the Tein Flexs' I got on the MSM. Ohhhh man. What'd I do to have that ride again. *cries*

[kansei]

I has s-techs and Tokico HPs (the struts will not affect the ride height at all unless they don't at all match OEM specs)

Note that in the following pics, I am running a tire size SMALLER than stock on my summer wheels. The diameter is off, they are 205/40-17 when 215/40-17 would be a much better match and makes the car look a lot lower:

Pics:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2372/2111519726_682ac4d5f8_b.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2145/1604032929_ef697a7465_b.jpg
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1161/1459629925_e1c789828f_b.jpg
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1217/1459619257_0f478e5fcf_b.jpg

[kansei]

More s-techs and HPs:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2302/2064639670_c1825ebe18_o.jpg
(thanks Z for the pic)

that car doesn't have the stock rake because it has all sorts of heavy stuff in the trunk.

[iracemine]

um..... springs wear out.

buy adjustable coil overs to make your ride high however the fuck you want.

end of thread.

[liquid_ag]

springs wear out WAY slower than struts. iirc they last long enough that they dont have a replacement interval on any passanger car

[iracemine]

yes true, but struts have absolutely no affect on ride hight.

struts have two main purpouses 1) dampen the spring inbound and outbound 2) the upper connection of the suspension

good disclaimer to say passenger car, and regular interval. If this dude has lots of stereo stuff in his back the car. also it is not designed to hold a load for prolonged periods. so yeah it could be premature but definitely worn.

In the truck shop we would send out springs all the time for a "rebuild" but thats because trucks work hard every day for hundreds of thousands of miles.

on my littil stadium RC truck they inform you to never leave it sitting on the wheels but to keep it up. And I rebuild the shocks every ten tanks of gas or so.

I run ground control with adjustable sleeves over stock struts. Not true coil-overs but they have a high spring rate and my car does not move much at all. not a great pic but here is one none the less.

[JoshP5]

you wouldnt want to mix springs, because you dont want different spring rates, mixing progressive with linear, i think you would have pretty sketchy handling if you did that.You can mix and match if you know what you're doing. I bought HTechs and was very happy with the drop, but the car pushed just the same as stock so I put stiffer Racing Beat springs on the rear. I knew this would work because RB and HTech front springs are both linear and 162lb/in.

No perceptible change in ride quality, but the car now tightens its line nicely with throttle--on stock swaybars. The drop is pretty much the same:

http://www.msprotege.com/members/JoshP5/nice2.jpg

OP: The change in perceived ride height can be due to height variations in the ground you park on, different amount of gas in your tank, junk in the trunk, etc. Every time I park the wheel gap is a little different.

[kansei]

springs wear out WAY slower than struts. iirc they last long enough that they dont have a replacement interval on any passanger car

I actually believe Volvo has it. My roommate had to have his springs replaced, and people on turbobricks said he was a bit past the recommended interval. His car has air suspension in the back but it would make these awful groaning sounds and it turned out there was a spring broken.

I'm still not sure what purpose the rear springs play in his suspension. the car lowers when you shut it off (chassis sits on the bump stops which are attached to the wheel hubs) and raises when you drive it (it's not crazy electromechanical, you can never see it raise or lower).. so the springs clearly don't control the ride height.

But yeah they wore out around 220k miles.

[JC-MP5]

God, I wish i had the money for coilovers so I could be done with this!

[liquid_ag]

thats crazy swedish shit, they dont count :pI actually believe Volvo has it. My roommate had to have his springs replaced, and people on turbobricks said he was a bit past the recommended interval. His car has air suspension in the back but it would make these awful groaning sounds and it turned out there was a spring broken.

I'm still not sure what purpose the rear springs play in his suspension. the car lowers when you shut it off (chassis sits on the bump stops which are attached to the wheel hubs) and raises when you drive it (it's not crazy electromechanical, you can never see it raise or lower).. so the springs clearly don't control the ride height.

But yeah they wore out around 220k miles.

[kansei]

The car was made in West Germany (1991 940SE manufactured in 1990).

[liquid_ag]

i wonder where my 240 was made. i know they had plants everywheres

[iracemine]

I actually believe Volvo has it. My roommate had to have his springs replaced, and people on turbobricks said he was a bit past the recommended interval. His car has air suspension in the back but it would make these awful groaning sounds and it turned out there was a spring broken.

I'm still not sure what purpose the rear springs play in his suspension. the car lowers when you shut it off (chassis sits on the bump stops which are attached to the wheel hubs) and raises when you drive it (it's not crazy electromechanical, you can never see it raise or lower).. so the springs clearly don't control the ride height.

But yeah they wore out around 220k miles.

huh????

air bags are on almost every 8class truck out there. Its because solely to keep the ride hight at the correct hight (important to keep the drive line at the correct angle as to no prematurely wear out the uv joints). yeah thats why they use them. to control the ride hight. Lincoln mark VIII have them and when they reach a certain speed they let them drop (for better handling and what not). wheres brian isint he in the service for this?

but air bags can wear out too. I have seen many air bags blow from age and abuse. but they wont droop. the air pressure is what keeps them at a certian ride hight.

[kansei]

I know that's how they are on most cars (I love how the Mark VIII did it because you could watch it raise back up as you put luggage in the trunk) but this Volvo isn't like that. A few hours after you shut the car off you come back and it's tucking RIM in the back.

[iracemine]

:dunno:

[SATimko]

Alfa Romeo had a DeDion hydraulic rear suspension on their Milano Platinums. Self leveling and was fed by the powersteering pump. Neat setup, kept the rear firmly planted, but also rough as shit sometimes.

[kansei]

On the volvo it uses nivomats and springs and it's a multilink setup out back. For the 940 it was only on the SE, and then only on the sedan SE. The other 940s and the 940SE wagon had a solid rear axle. The tech and engineering on that car amazes me all day long. I think it must be fed off of some engine-driven pump because as soon as you start driving it levels. I don't think it'll level if the car is just idling though.

This is interesting stuff cluttering up someone else's thread though, I might split it off onto a "weird euro auto-leveling independent rear suspension" thread :P

Edit: wow just read up on the nivomat system..

monotube designed shock absorber that provides a mechanical self-leveling feature utilizing the energy that is generated by the relative movement of the axle and body when driving.

Nivomat is a semi-supporting system working in combination with a mechanical spring.

[JC-MP5]

This is wat i want it to look like (one in front) anyone own it on here or know wat susp setup that is?

[liquid_ag]

looks like the teins

[JC-MP5]

S or H? It looks high in the rear to be either of them tho.....

[liquid_ag]

those wheels look small though

[kansei]

I can ask him hold on

k PM sent (on toronto protege owners club).

and yes they're 16s .

[Myk]

This is wat i want it to look like (one in front) anyone own it on here or know wat susp setup that is?

Hey all, (my first post,) yeah they are they Tein S, with Tokiko Blues.
195-50-16 rubber, 16 x 7 w/ 40mm offset Rims, (if that helps)

[kansei]

Gotta love s-techs and tokico blues :)

[DemonIAm]

compared to stock, how will the s-techs and blues combo ride? Want to go lower, but don't want the wife to think that i "fucked up" the car...

[kansei]

Does she consider the stock ride to be stiff? If so, she really wouldn't be pleased.

with 16s and lots of tire it isn't bad, just don't go crazy and get 18s.

[DemonIAm]

heck no... my friend has 18s and a nice drop on his p5... not sure of the spring/strut combo. rides like poo and rubs like a mofo when anyone (esp a fat guy like me) sits in the back..
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x145/JLBMP5/100_0657.jpg

she never really complains about the ride, so maybe I'd be ok...

[Myk]

My wife said that the finds the car still very 'comfortable' after I lowered it. She has a Saturn coupe and says my car is no more rough on the road.

I think decreasing your sidewalls makes the biggest change to the ride.

[JoshP5]

Hey Myk, welcome to the site! I'm running the same size wheels as you with 205/50s, rolled fenders, and still rubbing. Considering getting 195/50s next time but I'm concerned about them looking stretched on 7" rims. What kind of tires are you running, and are you rubbing at all?

[Myk]

^^^195/50/16. I wish I could get wider, but I would be rubbing too. However, they look fine to me, the rim does not stick out at all past the tire.

[JoshP5]

Cool, but what kind of tires are you running? In my experience size alone isn't enough since there's a lot of variance between manufacturers/models.

[Myk]

^^^REALLY?

Hankook Ventus Prime K105. There isn't really many choices out there for 195/50/16. My last set of tires where Kuhmo ECSTA711, same size.

[JoshP5]

Thanks!

Although the size is 195 or whatever, the actual treadwidth may be a bit different, and the section width varies, too. As an extreme example, my Falken "205s" have a treadwidth of 6.9"=175mm and a section width of about 8.4"=215mm on a 7" wheel. They don't make it easy for those who push the clearance envelope.

[kansei]

josh I'd check a site like www.edgeracing.com they have actual measured specs for many tires, and they'll tell you what width it was measured with.

so much work to run +40 wheels, so much work to fnd good tires in 195/50, so much work to clean so many spokes --how do you even enjoy life after all that. You can always shave the wheels down 1 or 2 mm if there is enough material there.

[JoshP5]

Nah, I think I'll just kill myself instead.

[kansei]

wanna buy some +45 with rubber bands for tires? lol. you falkens are crazy bulgy! either that or they have a seeerious rim guard.

[MazdaTom]

What's the typical life span for some Tokico Blues with the MSP springs on them? Just wondering. Haven't noticed any of them going out.

[JoshP5]

Crazy bulgy AND rim guard ftmfl. Never again. I'm always thinking about new rims...

[kansei]

What's the typical life span for some Tokico Blues with the MSP springs on them? Just wondering. Haven't noticed any of them going out.

I know the aftermarket Tokico Blues (the MSP ones have a relocated spring perch and are revalved) say they have a lifetime warranty against wearing out so I really have no clue.

I know the stock P5 struts are typically dead by 70k miles.

[DemonIAm]

really.. have not noticed any extra bounce in mine yet...

[SATimko]

116k miles and mine are still pretty taught.

[kansei]

116k miles and mine are still pretty taught.

You got your car with > 90k miles, right? I wouldn't be surprised if they were replaced.

Do some carbon dating on the rust on them or something. They should be quite rusted by now.

[SATimko]

Hahaha...yeah, they're quite rusty. I got the car with 91k. Judging by the P.O.'s lack of maintenence...it's hard to say.

[MazdaTom]

I know the aftermarket Tokico Blues (the MSP ones have a relocated spring perch and are revalved) say they have a lifetime warranty against wearing out so I really have no clue.

Aftermarket, not factory? My struts/springs are off a wrecked MSP so I'm assuming they were factory supplied.

[kansei]

yeah there are the factory MSP blues and aftermarket ones sold as upgrades for the P5/ES/etc.

The Protege MP3 came with blues too but I dunno if they were modded as well.

[MazdaTom]

So are the factory Blues not "suppose" to wear out either?

Blues and Tein S-Techs a good combo? yes? no? The spring rates of the S-Techs aren't massively stiffer, so I would think the Blues should handle them decently well.

[kansei]

'real' tokicos and s-techs pair really well together, lots of people (myself included) run that setup.

s-techs look stupid on MSP struts because of the relocated spring perch. Picture lowering the front 1.8" and not lowering the rear at all.. that's what it'll look like.

As for the MSP struts wearing out, someone with an MSP will have to chime in there. I just put the info about the real tokico blues out there, assuming that the same holds true. If no one knows you might want to contact tokico and find out.

[JC-MP5]

What about pics of one with H-techs? lool

[kansei]

josh (korean plastic surgeon) can chime in with that. I think he had the full h-tech set on at one point if I recall correctly.

[JoshP5]

I'm reluctant to post after such an egregious misnomer.

[JoshP5]

Well, ok. HPs/HTechs:

http://www.msprotege.com/members/JoshP5/side.jpg

Since MSP struts and off-the-shelf HPs are the same thing except for the rear spring perch and valving, I'd expect about the same longevity. I doubt Tokico would honor any lifetime warranty on the MSP units, though.

[kansei]

I haven't heard of anyone wearing out the aftermarket HPs.. does anyone have even a single data point of them wearing out?

[JC-MP5]

That doesnt look half bad! Ima try and buy the H-Techs for sale. :)